> Neanderthal skulls have huge brow ridges and lack chins, with a projecting midface that results in more prominent noses. But the recreated face suggests those differences were not so stark in life.
This surprised me enough to scroll back up and look at the reconstruction again, because it looks the woman definitely has (what I would think of as) a chin--which supports the "not so stark in real life" part. But if the skulls are that different, how would a Neanderthal face end up looking so similar to a human's? Did they have cartilage or something that doesn't get preserved in these skeletal remains?
quantified 1 days ago [-]
Whatever the differences, they would have been attractive enough to Homo Sapiens to breed with.
bediger4000 1 days ago [-]
Maybe not willingly, though. Look up Danny Vendramini's neanderthal predation theory, and consider that modern X chromosomes carry no neanderthal DNA, indicating that all interbreeding involved neanderthal males and human females.
loudmax 1 days ago [-]
A man passes his X chromosome (inherited from his mother) to any daughters. Any female offspring of a neanderthal father and a homo sapiens mother would have a neanderthal X chromosome and a sapiens X chromosome. If it's true that there's no neanderthal DNA on modern X chromosomes, this is not the cause.
What would be stronger evidence for an absence of neanderthal mothers among neanderthal/sapiens hybrid children would be a lack of neanderthal mitochondrial RNA in modern populations. This would point in the direction of no neanderthal grandmothers for us modern humans, though I'd be reluctant to present this as solid evidence. Maybe sapiens mitochondrial RNA is just better and there's selective pressure against neanderthal mitochondrial RNA.
None of this is to suggest that all neanderthal/sapiens couplings were loving affectionate parents. Just that the absence of neanderthal DNA on modern X chromosomes means nothing in this context.
pinkmuffinere 1 days ago [-]
> consider that modern X chromosomes carry no neanderthal DNA, indicating that all interbreeding involved neanderthal males and human females
This is a false implication, it’s possible that Neanderthal X chromosome just doesn’t “play nice” with human dna, and can’t result in fertile offspring. Admittedly I have not read the sources you recommend, so maybe they address this?
joshuaissac 1 days ago [-]
Or Neanderthal women lived with their tribe and their hybrid children died with that Neanderthal tribe, whereas modern human women and their hybrid children (or at least the ones who have living descendants) lived with modern human tribes and had a better chance of survival.
pinkmuffinere 23 hours ago [-]
Actually I don't think this would be able to explain the observed evidence. Consider this path:
1. Neanderthal woman "Ann" mates with Human man "Hugh"
2. Ann gives birth to son "Ander", who is then raised with neanderthals. Notably, Ander has human Y chromosome via Hugh, but Neanderthal X chromosome via Ann.
3. Ander mates with human woman "Uma". They have a daughter, passing Neanderthal X chromosome into human population.
I realize this is a very specific path, but it would _only have to happen once_ for the neanderthal X chromosome to be introduced into the human genome. I think it is very unlikely that such a path would simply never happen across the thousands of interactions we had. And therefore I think the observed fact (no impact of neanderthal x chromosome in modern genes) can't _just_ be explained by the proposed behavior (neanderthal mothers raise their children in their neanderthal tribe)
I think there does actually have to be some sort of incompatibility, or some other very-very-high failure rate, something like 99.99%.
joshuaissac 21 hours ago [-]
If first-order hybrids made up only a small proportion of the total population of humans and Neanderthals, then the probability that a pairing between a member of a modern human tribe and a member of a Neanderthal tribe would involve a first-order hybrid is quite small. Like if there are 2 hybrids in a 150-strong tribe at the frontier, and a cross-tribe pairing happens, there is about a 1.3% chance that it involves a hybrid, and half of that that the gender matches up. Even with a higher estimate of 5% hybrids in a tribe, it's a 1.67% chance for a match with the right gender.
And when that chance is realised, and a second-order hybrid is produced, the high child mortality rates of the time would put downward pressure on their numbers. Not zero, but a couple of orders of magnitudes lower than first-order hybrids.
First-order hybrid being having one parent from a Neanderthal tribe, other from a human tribe. Second-order hybrid additionally having at least one parent as a first-order hybrid (as in your step 3).
Also, there actually is Neanderthal DNA in the modern X chromosome. If in your step 2, Ann gives birth to a daughter Andrea, the daughter would have a Neanderthal X chromosome, and she can pass it on within her tribe. But she would have no Neanderthal mtDNA, which is only passed on maternally.
But there is other data that this model does not explain. Like, why is there no Neanderthal contribution to the modern Y chromosome?
pinkmuffinere 20 hours ago [-]
I don’t have much experience in this field, so I can’t give satisfying answers to your questions. However, you said two things that I find very interesting:
> Also, there actually is Neanderthal DNA in the modern X chromosome.
> why is there no Neanderthal contribution to the modern Y chromosome?
I think both of these claims contradict the parent! I’m not sure which is correct, I’ve never looked into this before, and was simply trusting that bediger4000‘s assertion about the X chromosome was true. But it seems the opposite is true?
IAmBroom 1 days ago [-]
> This is a false implication
No, but it is an overconfident assertion.
Maybe all neanderthalis x sapiens were the results of rape. Maybe the fetuses were only viable from the n. sperm to s. eggs. Maybe something else.
All are possible.
m4x 22 hours ago [-]
Vendramini's theory appears to be built upon some fairly extraordinary ideas that are not supported by actual evidence. In fact some of his claims (e.g. about face shape and skull placement) are directly contradicted by actual evidence. It's probably worth approaching this with some scepticism.
Beestie 1 days ago [-]
I'm just glad that the dumb idea that Neanderthals were dumb, club carrying knuckledraggers is finally being laid to rest. I hope we eventually learn what happened to them. They survived the choke point of 75,000 years ago only to disappear 30,000 years later. So cool to put a face to the name :-)
eweise 1 days ago [-]
I never thought they were dumb once I saw that they could power a car with their feet.
maerF0x0 1 days ago [-]
(flinstones reference, for our younger readers)
groos 1 days ago [-]
I wonder have the reconstruction techniques been verified by a double-blind experiment to reconstruct the face of a homo sapiens from a skull with a known photograph. Otherwise, you're just wondering how much of it is just artistry and how much solid, verified technique.
They had no privacy laws in the Paleolithic era, so this sort of doxxing is totally legit. Neanderthals cannot simply rely on the flesh being gone and bone being replaced by stone to conceal their faces.
krunck 23 hours ago [-]
Are the facial reconstruction techniques used on H. Sapiens skulls even applicable to Neanderthal skulls? Maybe the clues left on the skull are different between these species.
But good work, though. It's important to be able to imagine these beings as people.
21 hours ago [-]
amanaplanacanal 1 days ago [-]
I'm skeptical. Is this kind of facial reconstruction from a skull legit? Or is it pseudoscience?
prox 1 days ago [-]
It’s legit in the sense that they use this originally in forensics to reconstruct faces I think , say a victim or unknown so they can put out a search pamphlet.
They know the relative muscular thickness for each area as to compile a likeness. Is it 100% a look-a-like? Probably not, but the main features and composition should be comparable to the original face.
thangalin 1 days ago [-]
> Is this kind of facial reconstruction from a skull legit?
What did you search for when you tried to verify this yourself?
I did check the Wikipedia article, and they have an example of a reconstruction next to an actual photograph, and to my eye they looked nothing alike.
stronglikedan 1 days ago [-]
> What did you search for when you tried to verify this yourself?
That's quite the assumption, considering most people here would trust HN users here over a google search, understandably.
ethanrutherford 1 days ago [-]
I'm not sure what would be "pseudo-science" about it, but it is as legit as it can be. Reconstruction of a face from a skull is possible, but the goal is not to create an image that's indistinguishable from a hypothetical photograph of the subject. Rather, the intent is to form a general idea of what people of the time period would have looked like. Facial reconstruction is guided by current understanding of anatomy, musculature, aging processes, etc. Muscles and skin are attached to the skull based on modern human and primate anatomy, so what we get is a plausible representation of what someone with this exact skull shape may have looked like. Like with the dinosaurs, we cannot be 100% certain what the superficial exterior features looked like exactly. But, unlike with the dinosaurs, we know neanderthals are very closely related to modern humans, so we have a much more reasonable base to start from, as we can assume their facial muscles, skin, hair etc. would be similar to humans, but with different proportions. Plenty of real science goes into the process.
quantified 1 days ago [-]
I'm not sure about how much we know of musculature and fat layers of neanderthals. Working from skeletons of non-humans can be really fraught.
goodJobWalrus 1 days ago [-]
Neanderthals are humans.
Beestie 1 days ago [-]
Neanderthals are a distinct species. If "human" in the context you are using it is confined to Homo sapiens then no, Neanderthals are not human. If your definition of human is anything in the genus homo then yes, Neanderthals are human.
ASalazarMX 1 days ago [-]
Neanderthals are considered archaich humans, they were humans. Homo sapiens are modern humans.
I guess it can be argued that early archaich humans can barely be considered humans, but neanderthals were close enough to sapiens to interbred.
BigTTYGothGF 23 hours ago [-]
> Neanderthals are a distinct species
"Species" and "genus" are human (hey-o) concepts that we impose on the natural world to try and understand it, and ultimately this depends on who you ask.
1 days ago [-]
casey2 22 hours ago [-]
How long before they reconstruct her body, force her to invade Iran and have Elon Musk's babies?
Rendered at 19:58:45 GMT+0000 (Coordinated Universal Time) with Vercel.
This surprised me enough to scroll back up and look at the reconstruction again, because it looks the woman definitely has (what I would think of as) a chin--which supports the "not so stark in real life" part. But if the skulls are that different, how would a Neanderthal face end up looking so similar to a human's? Did they have cartilage or something that doesn't get preserved in these skeletal remains?
What would be stronger evidence for an absence of neanderthal mothers among neanderthal/sapiens hybrid children would be a lack of neanderthal mitochondrial RNA in modern populations. This would point in the direction of no neanderthal grandmothers for us modern humans, though I'd be reluctant to present this as solid evidence. Maybe sapiens mitochondrial RNA is just better and there's selective pressure against neanderthal mitochondrial RNA.
None of this is to suggest that all neanderthal/sapiens couplings were loving affectionate parents. Just that the absence of neanderthal DNA on modern X chromosomes means nothing in this context.
This is a false implication, it’s possible that Neanderthal X chromosome just doesn’t “play nice” with human dna, and can’t result in fertile offspring. Admittedly I have not read the sources you recommend, so maybe they address this?
1. Neanderthal woman "Ann" mates with Human man "Hugh"
2. Ann gives birth to son "Ander", who is then raised with neanderthals. Notably, Ander has human Y chromosome via Hugh, but Neanderthal X chromosome via Ann.
3. Ander mates with human woman "Uma". They have a daughter, passing Neanderthal X chromosome into human population.
I realize this is a very specific path, but it would _only have to happen once_ for the neanderthal X chromosome to be introduced into the human genome. I think it is very unlikely that such a path would simply never happen across the thousands of interactions we had. And therefore I think the observed fact (no impact of neanderthal x chromosome in modern genes) can't _just_ be explained by the proposed behavior (neanderthal mothers raise their children in their neanderthal tribe)
I think there does actually have to be some sort of incompatibility, or some other very-very-high failure rate, something like 99.99%.
And when that chance is realised, and a second-order hybrid is produced, the high child mortality rates of the time would put downward pressure on their numbers. Not zero, but a couple of orders of magnitudes lower than first-order hybrids.
First-order hybrid being having one parent from a Neanderthal tribe, other from a human tribe. Second-order hybrid additionally having at least one parent as a first-order hybrid (as in your step 3).
Also, there actually is Neanderthal DNA in the modern X chromosome. If in your step 2, Ann gives birth to a daughter Andrea, the daughter would have a Neanderthal X chromosome, and she can pass it on within her tribe. But she would have no Neanderthal mtDNA, which is only passed on maternally.
But there is other data that this model does not explain. Like, why is there no Neanderthal contribution to the modern Y chromosome?
> Also, there actually is Neanderthal DNA in the modern X chromosome.
> why is there no Neanderthal contribution to the modern Y chromosome?
I think both of these claims contradict the parent! I’m not sure which is correct, I’ve never looked into this before, and was simply trusting that bediger4000‘s assertion about the X chromosome was true. But it seems the opposite is true?
No, but it is an overconfident assertion.
Maybe all neanderthalis x sapiens were the results of rape. Maybe the fetuses were only viable from the n. sperm to s. eggs. Maybe something else.
All are possible.
But good work, though. It's important to be able to imagine these beings as people.
They know the relative muscular thickness for each area as to compile a likeness. Is it 100% a look-a-like? Probably not, but the main features and composition should be comparable to the original face.
What did you search for when you tried to verify this yourself?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klxUyd3CgrE
Aside, a similar approach was used in a MacGyver episode nearly 40 years ago ("The Secret of Parker House"):
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0638792/mediaviewer/rm119321036...
That's quite the assumption, considering most people here would trust HN users here over a google search, understandably.
I guess it can be argued that early archaich humans can barely be considered humans, but neanderthals were close enough to sapiens to interbred.
"Species" and "genus" are human (hey-o) concepts that we impose on the natural world to try and understand it, and ultimately this depends on who you ask.