I love that Magawa's wikipedia article is structured just like a human: Early Life, Career, Retirement and Death.
A few weeks ago when "Croatia declared free of landmines after 31 years" was posted here (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47189535), I rabbit holed wikipedia about landmine-sniffing animals. It's such a fascinating topic.
beAbU 1 days ago [-]
Just missing the "controversies" and "personal life" sections!
frereubu 1 days ago [-]
"Alleged embezzlement of soft fruit"
SilentM68 15 hours ago [-]
Ah, RatKablooey. Yeah, that’s the nickname they gave the old bomb-sniffing rat. Guy was a legend… or at least, that’s what the reports said. His “bomb count” was so high, even the military started double-checking the math when his stats became too explosive for the spreadsheet. Rumor has it that half the “bombs he found” were just suspiciously shaped cheese wrappers. Retired with a medal, a tiny cape, and a lifetime supply of peanuts. Still shows up at reunions, mostly to argue about the “official count,” and reminisce with his old field commander, Agent Cody Banks.
cobbzilla 20 hours ago [-]
8 years is an extraordinarily long lifespan for a rat, isn’t it? And he got a lot done!!
jomar 19 hours ago [-]
Apparently it's about as expected for a southern giant pouched rat. But he was indeed a particularly good one!
gavmor 1 days ago [-]
How does one rat mentor another?
sonofhans 1 days ago [-]
You can teach a kid to change a tire without saying a word. It’s the same thing. Rats are very smart and very social. Rats that were good at teaching Rathood to their little ones had more that survived.
Put food in a maze and I’m sure rats would teach other rats how to get it. I expect this is similar.
lostlogin 22 hours ago [-]
Our dog learned to find tennis balls by smell off a dog that was good at it. This was after me one walk with this dog.
Every trip to the park got us a few.
Then he ate one and have himself a bowel obstruction and me a great enthusiasm for pet insurance.
dtsykunov 1 days ago [-]
My guess, first they send them links to confluence wiki.
fmbb 24 hours ago [-]
All deprecated pages with outdated info of course. But the comments have links to Slack threads about the incorrect info.
pimlottc 23 hours ago [-]
“Feel free to update the wiki to correct anything you find that’s outdated”
teekert 14 hours ago [-]
When I was young I saw a rat mentor 4 turtles!
12 hours ago [-]
thinkingtoilet 1 days ago [-]
Rats are intelligent social mammals. They teach by actions. Imagine training a dog. You have two dogs, one trained and one not. You say "sit" and the trained dog sits and you give it a treat. The non-trained dog will quickly pick up on that.
yzydserd 24 hours ago [-]
Human in the loop reinforcement learning
mrandish 23 hours ago [-]
More specifically, fruit in the loop reinforcement learning.
cobbzilla 20 hours ago [-]
imitation learning is widespread among animals including many nonhuman species
I have no expertise. His arguments sound very plausible though.
BirAdam 8 hours ago [-]
I too have no expertise here, but I've known quite a few rodents. So... my amateur take:
I do not think that the area would necessarily need to be cleared of debris first. Rats can get places people would never imagine they could quite easily.
What I did find to be consistent with rodents is the difficulty in getting them to use set search patterns and such. Rodents go where and how rodents go, and I've never found it possible to teach them set routes. They get a whiff and tend to go right at whatever they smelled in contrast to dogs who can be taught to take set routes/patterns.
The "distance from the nose" wouldn't matter. Rodents can often smell stuff that's around a mile away... a few inches of dirt (most landmines are under fewer than 25cm of dirt, anti-tank mines under fewer than 30cm) wouldn't be sufficient to deter them.
Reliably signaling humans depends upon the particular rodent. Rodents have personalities, and they will often make very particular signals to their people in response to particular things. Reliably enough to bet a life on it? Not sure, but I don't think they'd be terrible in that regard.
Fluorescence 4 hours ago [-]
> in contrast to dogs who can be taught to take set routes/patterns
A rat taught to do a Westminster-style agility course including slalom cones:
"1) Rats have short legs and can only be used in a smooth, obstruction free area.
2) Rats cannot be trained to move in a search pattern.
3) Rats have the capacity to detect explosive residue and can apparently be encouraged to do so with food rewards...
4) ...but there is no evidence that rats can respond to explosive residue in a hazardous area reliably.
5) There is no evidence that the method of deployment results in a thorough search of the area.
6) The speed of search sometimes claimed would make thorough search (tiny nose within 10 cms of target) physically impossible.
7) The cost of preparing the area where they are used, then dragging the rat back and forth over it has to be added to training and housing the rats.
8) While a rat may indicate on a hazard, it cannot expose and clear it. The cost of manually excavating and clearing any explosive hazard that the rat signals on must also be added to the total cost of clearance.
9) The ground has to be scalped for them to be dragged across it in a straight line, then safe-lanes for the handlers manually searched and cleared – so the total cost of using the rats includes the cost of an armoured vegetation cutter and a fully equipped demining team to prepare the area in which the rat will search.
10) There is absolutely no evidence that the cost is less than the cost of demining the area using the same assets but without rats.
11) Because the rat cannot be trained to search and indicate in a set way (which a dog can be reliably trained to do) there is no way for a Quality Assurance observer to know whether the rat is paying attention, so no way of knowing whether the rat has done anything of any value at all.
"
Ok, I only skimmed the article, but it sounded a bit forced. And already point 1 in the summary makes me sceptic, because rats can climb pretty well as far as I know. (Otherwise I am no expert, either)
"5. There is no evidence that the method of deployment results in a thorough search of the area."
This would be my main question here.
pyuser583 17 hours ago [-]
It sounds weird there is a pro-rat constituency.
catlikesshrimp 24 hours ago [-]
This is the most technical post, and it will go almost unnoticed.
A cool story about a rat or a dog draws more attention than mines which were missed and maimed people years after searching the field.
Anyways, the author of that piece is a little mad, but in the sense that it is worth serious consideration. TLDR: the rats aren't cost effective and, worst of all, haven't scientifically proved to be effective.
aaron695 5 hours ago [-]
[dead]
monster_group 1 days ago [-]
Stark reminder of how precious and meaningful a life can be - of any creature, no matter how small. We should be nice to all creatures not just humans.
vvpan 22 hours ago [-]
From "Loving-Kindness (Metta) Sutta" of the Buddhist Pali Canon:
In gladness and in safety,
May all beings be at ease.
Whatever living beings there may be;
Whether they are weak or strong, omitting none,
The great or the mighty, medium, short or small,
The seen and the unseen,
Those living near and far away,
Those born and to-be-born —
May all beings be at ease!
ge96 1 days ago [-]
I was recently at a wet lands were there were hundreds of thousands of snow geese making the lake white and blackening the sky, crazy to see and yeah we are blessed with the ability to change the entire Earth, the other guys are just along for the ride
fwipsy 21 hours ago [-]
Beaver dams change ecosystems. The Earth has oxygen due to cyanobacteria. Pedantically, all living beings change the Earth. But it certainly seems like we're the ones making the biggest changes at the moment.
bluefirebrand 20 hours ago [-]
It's a really nice sentiment, but it makes me sad. We're barely even nice to humans, mostly
It's downright miraculous when we respect a non-human life enough to honor it like this
This rat will be remembered for longer than I will, that's for sure
aziaziazi 14 hours ago [-]
There’s no point to be sad: even trees get remembered and honoured. Human’s humanity have no such "compassion contingent”: loving a new child doesn’t take the love out of the precedents.
Some antispeciesist (and others) argue that giving more compassion to animals is a step to develop one’s compassion to others being, hence being nicer to others humans. On the opposite: accepting an horrendous practices toward non-humans animals makes ones more prone to accept horrendous practice toward humans.
thinkingtoilet 1 days ago [-]
I agree. However, you get insane push back the second you start to mention veganism. And yes, that is a luxury and there large parts of the world where that's not an option, but if you're reading this comment you probably could survive without eating meat.
delecti 1 days ago [-]
Yep. Another great example of this is any discussion where datacenter resource usage gets brought up. Mention how much water someone's ChatGPT queries takes and people will generally agree it's a problem. Mention how much water their burger takes and at best you'll get people hemming and hawing about protein or indigenous cultures or their cousin's friend who went vegan and got really sick.
jasonwatkinspdx 23 hours ago [-]
Also, I personally think framing it as a binary or quasi religious decision is counterproductive.
I was vegetarian for some years, before ultimately deciding I just run better on an omnivore diet. But for environmental and ethical reasons I decided to make meat more of a side dish vs the center of the meal, and to mostly eat chicken vs more high environmental impact animal proteins like beef.
I think a lot of people that would never go full vegan can do well on this sort of less meat middle road.
fwipsy 21 hours ago [-]
Hot take: people get angry about veganism because they suspect, deep down, that vegans are right and feel guilty about eating meat. (Not taking the moral high ground here - I have put approximately zero effort into reducing meat intake at all.)
The real problem with veganism is that you are a social outcast around normies. That was the biggest problem that I had. Also, veganism is essentially a "fundamentalist" way of thinking -- all or nothing. Now, I advocate for people to experiment with eating less meat and animal products, not zero. Even if people cut the amount of meat they ate by 20%, it would have a huge environmental impact. Also, the type of meat you eat also has a large environmental impact: Consider beef vs chicken.
thinkingtoilet 21 hours ago [-]
Vegas are objectively right. I eat mostly vegan but still eat other stuff from time to time. I look at those times as me being selfish. I am an imperfect person and the vegans are right.
12 hours ago [-]
DontchaKnowit 20 hours ago [-]
I kinda feel like vegetarians are right but consuming animal derived products is fine.
rideontime 20 hours ago [-]
So long as they're humanely harvested? Some argue that cows are mistreated when kept producing milk as much as they are, but I haven't looked into it because I'm selfish too.
latexr 12 hours ago [-]
Cows are mammals. They produce milk for their young for a period after giving birth then stop, just like a human woman. Which means that for us to take their milk we have to keep them constantly pregnant.
Ask a woman (or think about it if you are one) how they would like being forcefully impregnated then having their tits constantly milked, year after year. As a bonus, the born kids are separated into girls to be milked in the same cycle and boys to be killed and eaten.
fwipsy 17 hours ago [-]
Agree if the animals are treated well; but I have a very high bar for that. I would also accept eating animals which died of old age if it could be done safely. It's easier to just round this to "vegan."
BirAdam 8 hours ago [-]
Hard disagree. People care about animals because they have faces that trigger their empathy. Plant life is still life. The destruction of plants to feed people is no more moral than the slaughter of an animal. The cutting of a redwood to make a desk is not moral. Many people also lack any kind of principle and make stuff up as they go. They get angry at killing a butterfly, but they don't care at all about killing a wasp. Likewise, people get upset about a pig, but they don't care about carrots. The carrots lack a face, and the wasp lacks pretty wings.
energy123 8 hours ago [-]
The carrot lacks a brain that can experience pain, fear and depression, that's why nobody cares about carrots.
RIP Magawa. Animals are wonderful. My grandmother had seizures for the latter part of her life and her doctors were unable to determine the root cause. A Great Dane mix her and my grandfather rescued was able to sense when one a fit was coming on and would lean on her until she was lying down and safe.
quirkot 1 days ago [-]
Magawa cleared 1,517,711 sq.ft of land. He could work at a pace of 2,808 sq.ft (a doubles tennis court) every 20 minutes. If he maintained that pace, he worked 180.2 hours. Let's assume, with hazardous terrain, he worked 25% that speed on average. If that's the case he worked ~720 hours during a 5-6 year career. A different rat, Ronin, that found more stuff found a total of 124 explosive devices. So Magawa found no more than 1 explosive for every 5 hours and 45 minutes of searching. Or approximately one device every 17.25 tennis courts of searching.
Real needle in a haystack stuff, wow
Rendello 22 hours ago [-]
Another comment pointed out that a at least one de-mining expert is skeptical:
There is a concrete numbers of dollars needed to functionally demine Cambodia, and it's in the low billions of dollars. They have highly effective teams, and you can directly contribute by visiting museum. https://www.cambodialandminemuseum.org/
dennis_jeeves2 1 days ago [-]
I spent the last minute observing in silence, in memory of this remarkable creature. HN sheep, I command thee all, to do the same.
gfna 1 days ago [-]
I did. Also, I think i needed this bit of news today.
antman 11 hours ago [-]
I recently visited the facility near Angor Wat Cambodia. Its a facility with a lot of promotional matetial and have greatbway of presentong themselves. I had a demo presentation with a rat doing demining so some observations:
The rats are big. The idea is that they smell mines and are more useful than dogs since they are less than 5kg which detonates the mines. They are also better than human since they can smell old mines that are under soil or plants after so many decades. Unfortunate that is very labor intensive since there are two people escorting each rat and handle it with tethers.
For those reasons their effectiveness is limited.
A few km up the same road is the Cambodian Landmine Museum that has a couple of demo gardens where one can spectacularly fail find Lamdimes Found like 10 amd they were like one hundred, 2 right next to me…. Unfortunately that place which is run by a person called Aki Ra although having done a lot more work gets less financing.
Rats are so awesome, we just need to GMO them to live longer.
esprehn 18 hours ago [-]
I just can't help but imagine those long lived rats escaping and taking over our cities. We already struggle with the rat population and they only live 3 years, imagine if they lived 15.
Also I love rats and totally agree they're tough pets because they don't live long enough. We had many of them growing up and spent a fortune removing tumors.
jacquesm 13 hours ago [-]
Some of the rats live to 80, sometimes 90 years old.
enos_feedler 6 hours ago [-]
If you visit Siem Reap there is a museum and interactive demos of this whole process. You can even hold one of the rats. It was pretty fascinating!
cjkaminski 23 hours ago [-]
Finally, some excellent news that honors the contributions of a (once) living creature that made the world a better place (presumably without conflicting ulterior motives).
the-grump 1 days ago [-]
These are the creatures we kill with poison and carry experiments on.
3eb7988a1663 1 days ago [-]
Those mice have a sculpture as well[0].
Nobody likes experimenting on animals, but it is use mice or orphans in third world countries. In silico and computational models are just not a good enough analogue for the human body.
Well it's good to be honest, and so I commend you on that.
So the hierarchy is
- our kids
- "third-world orphans"
- other species
For what it's worth, I'm not denying the benefit we obtain by testing on animals, nor am I suggesting that we live surrounded by rodents that we know to be vectors for multiple diseases that would affect us.
The comment above was merely an observation on the value of life and how little attention we pay to it.
We subject sentient beings to untold amounts of horror every day, and we are completely destroying the balance of life on earth with a system that is entirely devoted to serving humans--individual humans, not humanity.
The statue is not the point. The point is what this little creature did and how we might learn to show mercy and respect to our fellow sentient beings.
edm0nd 22 hours ago [-]
Correct. These are the creatures that will ruin your home/barn if infested with them.
Source: recently finished getting rid of a rat infestation in my barn. they also reproduce at a crazy rate. Some poison + getting two barn cats = problem solved.
jampekka 1 days ago [-]
Sadly demand for such heros may increase in the future. Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Ukraine and Finland withdrew from the Ottawa Treaty banning personnel mines. And probably more countries will follow.
caycep 1 days ago [-]
Is that their fault or is there maybe a giant reason nearby why they are doing this?
jampekka 24 hours ago [-]
Whatever the reason, this will increase the likelihood of landmine casualties in the future. And not necessarily (only) in this area, but it weakens the treaty in general.
Part of these kinds of treaties is to accept some additional difficulty or expenses in defence for a more widespread benefit. I'm living in Finland and I would have accepted these.
nickff 23 hours ago [-]
Would you expect other countries to come to Finland’s aid if the country had declined to employ all the ‘force-multipliers’ that were available to it?
I would not expect other countries to come to Finland’s aid if Finland had made such decisions.
jampekka 23 hours ago [-]
161 countries are still in the Ottawa Treaty, including all European countries except the ones who withdrew. I have hard time seeing how this treaty would have much effect on wartime alliances.
But if that's the case, what are "all the force multipliers"? Chemical weapons? Biological weapons? What share of the GDP for defence?
nickff 20 hours ago [-]
It's nice that so many countries are signatories, but the countries which are currently involved in significant conflicts, have been, or are likely to be, are all non-signatories, have withdrawn, or are not abiding by their commitment. I'm not sure how much it matters that many non-warring countries are signatories to the convention, unless you think the Ottawa Treaty has actually prevented one or more conflicts (which I doubt).
I find some of the signatories laughable, as both sides in the Russia-Ukraine conflict have used them (with Ukraine being a signatory), while countries like Palestine and Eritrea have committed egregious human rights violations (since assenting), so I don't trust any commitment of theirs.
With respect to chemical and biological weapons, I think the reason they're not widely used is that they're relatively ineffective, and inconvenient, so I don't think they're a force-multiplier at all. Russia & Syria's (likely) uses of chemical weapons seem like more of a (mostly ineffective) desperate gamble than a brilliant move, though they demonstrate the non-existent consequences to such violations of treaty obligations.
jampekka 2 hours ago [-]
The main effect of the treaty is that personnel mine production and trade has dramatically decreased, thus making it harder for (small) non-signatories to deploy too.
International treaties tend to be always somewhat aspirational and are often violated and sparsely enforced. This does not mean they don't have any effect.
Pay08 11 hours ago [-]
The main problem with biological and chemical weapons isn't their effectiveness (or lack thereof), but the impossibility of controlling them.
BurningFrog 24 hours ago [-]
With an expansive Russia next door it's hard to forego effective defense measures.
jampekka 24 hours ago [-]
I'm in Finland and I would have forgone this measure. It is not a critical, or even an important, part of the defence strategy.
jacquesm 13 hours ago [-]
You couldn't be more wrong about that.
jampekka 2 hours ago [-]
That's a bit difficult argument to exhaustively address.
Personnel mines has been a topic of considerable public, political and military discussion about personnel mines in Finland for a long time and has been analyzed in depth. Even now, after a significant political mood change at around 2024, the official line (e.g. in the government proposal[1] that led to the withdrawal) is that personnel mines have mostly an auxiliary role in the defence strategy.
Better a diplomat than a warmonger. Lets hope there are saner heads in Finland as such methods become more and more relevant.
jacquesm 11 hours ago [-]
Well, there is a bit of a problem. Ukraine has shown the reality of dealing with Russia and unfortunately landmines are back on the menu. Yes, it would be much better if we didn't need to defend from aggressors. But if you tie your own army one hand behind their backs then they will lose for sure. This about war, not Oxford boxing rules, and if one side commits one human rights violation after the other it would be great if you could keep the high ground but there are practical limits to that.
Note the incredible restraint of Ukrainians troops in dealing with Russian civilians and captured Russian military. But that does not translate into 'let's handicap our own forces'.
The warmongers are on the other side of the border. Europe is just reacting to this and the states that have rescinded the landmine ban are all directly in the line of fire.
aa-jv 9 hours ago [-]
Ukraine also showed the world how to utterly fail at finding diplomatic solutions to ones problems.
jacquesm 8 hours ago [-]
In the interest of figuring out whether you are trolling or not, can you please describe which problems these are and what diplomatic solutions you believe exist?
aa-jv 8 hours ago [-]
I'm not trolling - its pretty evident that diplomacy was not effective and that the decision was made to go to war, whatever the cost - because thats what happened.
The diplomatic effort to save over a million men from needless massacre on the battlefield was not considered worthwhile by the ruling elites running Ukraine for the past two decades, in face of the immense profits to be made - by an elite few - in war profits.
In the interest of figuring out whether you profit from war or not, why don't you tell us the extent of your own investment in the military industrial complex which currently profits from propagating the "ma' Russia" trope ..
jacquesm 5 hours ago [-]
Ukraine did not decide to go to war. I really don't know where you got the idea that they had any agency in preventing this short of giving Russia all of their territory and fleeing West. Since you're an immigrant into Europe maybe study the lay of the land a bit before having such outspoken opinions. You are effectively a mouthpiece for Russian propaganda which I have now idea where you picked it up (you're from Australia originally iirc and you are currently in Austria so you have access to information just like everybody else).
jampekka 2 hours ago [-]
> I really don't know where you got the idea that they had any agency in preventing this short of giving Russia all of their territory and fleeing West.
This is at best a conjecture. It's arguable what terms are acceptable and to whom, but Russia has offered and is offering substantially milder terms than taking all of Ukraine. They probably wouldn't even want western Ukraine if offered.
aa-jv 4 hours ago [-]
Ukraine decided war with Russia was worth the cost that would otherwise have been imposed on it by Russia, during negotiations. Both nations chose war, because their cultures require it.
>Immigrant to Europe
To me, this reads as a banal attempt at doxxing, since you have assumed yourself the position of arbiter of moral authority, which is being challenged by my assertions - but since you choose to frame things in this context, I can say with positive certainty that my cosmopolitan, multi-national, multi-language lifestyle, carried on over 4 decades, has well and truly led me to what I consider to be an elevated position: that all cultures are arbitrary and choose war instead of peace overtly, and often blindly.
The narrative that "all Russians are bad" or that "Russia can never be trusted" is as banal as the narrative - although equally 'true' - that "all Americans are bad" and that "America cannot be trusted", also. The simple fact of the matter is, I know plenty of great Russians. And Americans. And Iraqis', and Afghani's, and Kurds and Israeli's and Iranians and Egyptians and a few great Brits, a very hilarious Yemeni family (also immigrants), and a handfull of other wonderful people, on the other side of the _label_.
Russia and Ukraine are in the mess they are in because their arbitrary cultures are perpetuating the hatred, like you, instead of postulating peace and prosperity, like me.
The simple fact is, our current set of nations, equally human, is currently too incompetent to attain the wishes of the greater human entity, which exists well and truly beyond the sphere of those claiming that "mouthpieces of Russian propaganda" are something to be worrying about.
And the reason for that incompetence is, in my well-travelled and -spoken opinion, due to one factor only: the laziness of those who would use "those of another culture, over there", to manifest their own self-hatred. Because, as an American, you must surely, surely understand that there is a growing stack of reasons for the rest of the world to hate America right now - and yet, here we are, having a civil discussion about the state of things.
It is my learned opinion that there are no greater or lesser, more inferior or superior cultures - that all humans have the same constraints hefted upon them in greater or lesser magnitude, and those of us who have the freedom of expression and travel to maintain a multi-cultural, cosmopolitan lifestyle, must never submit to those incapable of escaping the propaganda and hubris of their own mono-culture.
All culture is a lie, which only persists in the re-telling. "Russians are evil" and "Americans are evil" are lies, persisted by those who re-tell them, designed to keep Russians and Americans from doing great things, together.
And if you think this isn't applicable, in every single human case tested so far, then you need to travel more. And not as a tourist: as a local.
It's the only way to be sure you know what you're talking about with regards to world affairs...
toast0 3 hours ago [-]
> Ukraine decided war with Russia was worth the cost that would otherwise have been imposed on it by Russia, during negotiations. Both nations chose war, because their cultures require it.
Ukraine certainly could have chosen to accept Russia's demands, but the demand was essentially the extinguishment of soverign Ukraine, and the extinguishment of Ukrainian identity. At least, those were the demands I saw.
Not a lot of diplomatic room. Also, Ukraine had engaged diplomatically with Russia in the past, but it turns out there's no mechanism for Ukraine to enforce treaties that Russia signed.
mopsi 2 hours ago [-]
Russia's intentions for Ukraine were not limited to only destruction of statehood and identity, but included the physical extermination of Ukrainians too; at least to such extent that Ukrainians would not be able to self-govern anymore: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Russia_Should_Do_with_Ukr...
This closely mirrors the actions of Russians in the 1940s against a number of countries in Eastern Europe. Exterminate doctors-lawyers-merchants to destroy natural leaders, and then exploit the working class people as slaves to the immigrant class of Russian masters. This is the blueprint of how Russia has grown from a small city-state to span 11 timezones. The parent poster mentioned banality several times. It's utterly banal to believe that you can smooth talk your way out of this.
As much as the poster criticizes Western attitudes, they end up reproducing one of the most characteristic ones: the belief that every conflict can be managed through negotiation and that there is always some mutually acceptable deal to be made. This reflects the Anglo-American bubble and bias toward materialism, which leads to serious misjudgements when applied to situations where motivations other than economic.
6 hours ago [-]
consumer451 10 hours ago [-]
> Better a diplomat than a warmonger.
I am genuinely curious what you mean by this exactly? Do you see Finland as being led by warmongers?
aa-jv 9 hours ago [-]
I believe that Europe is currently led by warmongers, and yes, that Finland is currently caught in the throes of war profiteering.
consumer451 9 hours ago [-]
Wow. Do you believe that Russia is currently led my warmongers?
aa-jv 9 hours ago [-]
Yes, and I also believe that the Western mindset is stuck in a collective dialectic which disallows honest discussion on the subject, because in fact Europe has a lot to answer for on the topic of war, recently, and there is a lot of profit being made by those very European institutions responsible for collectivizing and propagating war-monger groupthink. Europe does not have altruistic arms dealers - it has war-mongering profiteers who have historical ties to the subject dating back hundreds of years.
Russia is not even the worlds #1 source of war-mongering, by a long shot. (The UK and the USA are, having murdered millions of innocent human beings since 2003 in multiple different theatres - countries and cultures deemed inferior by Western, fundamentalist, racist, ruling elites...)
I am not Russian, and can thus do nothing effective about Russia. I am a subject of the criminal 5-eyes western alliance which has murdered millions of innocent human beings since 2003, however, and I no longer believe in Western moral authority which gives us the imperative to 'do something about their war criminals' without "first taking care of our own war criminals", because we have far, far more heinously evil individuals still running the show with bloodied hands and with massive war crimes and crimes against humanity to answer for - yet we do nothing while bleating about Putin.
salad-tycoon 1 days ago [-]
Wonder how hard it would be to train for diabetes? My under 10yo was just diagnosed with T1DM, a pocket rat sounds like fun and cheaper than a dog which is priced at unobtainium prices for us.
Animals are awesome, land mines are not. I hope we can avoid ever bringing that to our shores. Sadly, I know we now have air-mines (drones) so guess someone has to come up with drone sniffing pidgins or something (though obviously a parked drone probably doesn’t persist as long as a buried stationary mine and a flying drone less so).
War sucks.
ThrowawayTestr 1 days ago [-]
From what I've read from rat owners, the worst thing about owning a rat is their short lifespans.
donbrae 23 hours ago [-]
What a hero. Rats are so smart. I previously asked what I think was an official account on Instagram and was relieved that the rats are apparently too light to set off the mines.
Land-mines, particularly anti-personnel land minds are just horrible weapons. They should be banned.
razakel 14 hours ago [-]
They've been banned since 1997, though Lithuania has withdrawn and Estonia, Latvia, Poland and Finland plan to.
vardump 14 hours ago [-]
Funny how all countries are adjacent to Russia...
Pay08 11 hours ago [-]
Ukraine has withdrawn as well.
teleforce 21 hours ago [-]
I think instead of cloning on a static meaningless statue, much better if we clone Magawa in term of functionality and cabability, and name the landmine detection machine device Magawa.
Japanese researchers have already successful in detecting sub-surface bamboo shoots for culinary, because young bamboo shoot underneath the ground taste better than apparent overground ones.
Let's invent a landmines detection robotic device namely MAGAWA for Mines Apparatus Ground Assessment Waveform Analysis.
downboots 21 hours ago [-]
Fever dream interview question: 100 landmines are cleared per hero rat. How many rats needed to restore peace in Eurasia?
hackable_sand 21 hours ago [-]
We have drones now which are cheap and recyclable.
But it takes humans to decide how much work we're going to make for ourselves.
No one likes those shitty kids that keep making messes because they are entitled or angry.
mikkupikku 1 days ago [-]
Rats are incredible animals, and this is a well deserved honor.
ballooney 1 days ago [-]
I don’t like this site’s obsession with reducing everything to market opportunities, but… it’s extremely well documented that land mines, white truffles, cancer, diabetes, chemical weapons, etc can all be ‘sniffed’ by animals and it’s a mechanism that is almost always ‘better’ (cheaper, quicker, more deployable in the field) than human-engineered solutions. Surely there’s some vebture capital opportunity here for better sensors that would unarguably improve our lot more than AI, at least per dollar invested?
ks2048 1 days ago [-]
There has certainly been work on it, but not sure what the status is. Of course, it could be very useful.
Sounds like the obsession of reinventing trains and trees. Surely training a rat is cheaper than a portable real-time NMR device, right?
sonofhans 1 days ago [-]
Rats are sentient beings. If we have a choice, it’s not ethical to risk their lives to meet our own goals.
lapetitejort 24 hours ago [-]
Before focusing on rats, who are too light to set off mines and live long pampered lives, I would focus on the 73 million pigs and 87 million cows in factory farms [0].
Donations to APOPO can be made at apopo.org. I was at the APOPO Visitors Center in Cambodia last year when the Trump administration eliminated all USAID funding for APOPO. The bombs being removed by APOPO in S.E. Asia were dropped by the U.S. during the Nixon and Johnson presidencies.
shevy-java 10 hours ago [-]
Some have statues of rats.
Others have statues of cats.
And others have statues of a mad clown king. To each their own.
We here have a few old statues mostly from people who won in
"glorious wars". While the statues look ok (though, aged),
at one point in time I wondered why we glorify these folks.
I then concluded that statues showing humans is a rather outdated
concept, IMO. Some of this is history though, but it is still
outdated.
For all of the recipients. Tearing up a bit reading stories of courage that will never get the same recognition just because they weren't born a human.
m3kw9 6 hours ago [-]
i assure you if we have enough resources, rats will have rights.
ImHereToVote 13 hours ago [-]
Wait. How did Cambodia end up with so many mines and explosives in the first place?
Pay08 11 hours ago [-]
War with Vietnam in the 70s.
ImHereToVote 8 hours ago [-]
So Vietnam put those ordnances there, those bastards.
Pay08 8 hours ago [-]
No, all sides in that war (it kicked off the Cambodian civil war, so there were a lot of sides) used landmines.
sheikhnbake 1 days ago [-]
RIP Magawa
glass1122 20 hours ago [-]
[dead]
ValveFan6969 18 hours ago [-]
[dead]
Rendered at 20:30:24 GMT+0000 (Coordinated Universal Time) with Vercel.
> He spent a number of weeks mentoring 20 newly-recruited rats before ultimately retiring to a life of "snacking on bananas and peanuts".
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magawa
End to life worthy of being envied.
A few weeks ago when "Croatia declared free of landmines after 31 years" was posted here (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47189535), I rabbit holed wikipedia about landmine-sniffing animals. It's such a fascinating topic.
Put food in a maze and I’m sure rats would teach other rats how to get it. I expect this is similar.
Every trip to the park got us a few.
Then he ate one and have himself a bowel obstruction and me a great enthusiasm for pet insurance.
I have no expertise. His arguments sound very plausible though.
I do not think that the area would necessarily need to be cleared of debris first. Rats can get places people would never imagine they could quite easily.
What I did find to be consistent with rodents is the difficulty in getting them to use set search patterns and such. Rodents go where and how rodents go, and I've never found it possible to teach them set routes. They get a whiff and tend to go right at whatever they smelled in contrast to dogs who can be taught to take set routes/patterns.
The "distance from the nose" wouldn't matter. Rodents can often smell stuff that's around a mile away... a few inches of dirt (most landmines are under fewer than 25cm of dirt, anti-tank mines under fewer than 30cm) wouldn't be sufficient to deter them.
Reliably signaling humans depends upon the particular rodent. Rodents have personalities, and they will often make very particular signals to their people in response to particular things. Reliably enough to bet a life on it? Not sure, but I don't think they'd be terrible in that regard.
A rat taught to do a Westminster-style agility course including slalom cones:
https://imgur.com/gallery/smart-pet-rat-tofu-doing-fun-agili...
A rat driving a car. Not evidence of anything... just fun
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0GWux2kz24
2) Rats cannot be trained to move in a search pattern.
3) Rats have the capacity to detect explosive residue and can apparently be encouraged to do so with food rewards...
4) ...but there is no evidence that rats can respond to explosive residue in a hazardous area reliably.
5) There is no evidence that the method of deployment results in a thorough search of the area.
6) The speed of search sometimes claimed would make thorough search (tiny nose within 10 cms of target) physically impossible.
7) The cost of preparing the area where they are used, then dragging the rat back and forth over it has to be added to training and housing the rats.
8) While a rat may indicate on a hazard, it cannot expose and clear it. The cost of manually excavating and clearing any explosive hazard that the rat signals on must also be added to the total cost of clearance.
9) The ground has to be scalped for them to be dragged across it in a straight line, then safe-lanes for the handlers manually searched and cleared – so the total cost of using the rats includes the cost of an armoured vegetation cutter and a fully equipped demining team to prepare the area in which the rat will search.
10) There is absolutely no evidence that the cost is less than the cost of demining the area using the same assets but without rats.
11) Because the rat cannot be trained to search and indicate in a set way (which a dog can be reliably trained to do) there is no way for a Quality Assurance observer to know whether the rat is paying attention, so no way of knowing whether the rat has done anything of any value at all.
"
Ok, I only skimmed the article, but it sounded a bit forced. And already point 1 in the summary makes me sceptic, because rats can climb pretty well as far as I know. (Otherwise I am no expert, either)
"5. There is no evidence that the method of deployment results in a thorough search of the area."
This would be my main question here.
A cool story about a rat or a dog draws more attention than mines which were missed and maimed people years after searching the field.
Anyways, the author of that piece is a little mad, but in the sense that it is worth serious consideration. TLDR: the rats aren't cost effective and, worst of all, haven't scientifically proved to be effective.
In gladness and in safety,
May all beings be at ease.
Whatever living beings there may be;
Whether they are weak or strong, omitting none,
The great or the mighty, medium, short or small,
The seen and the unseen,
Those living near and far away,
Those born and to-be-born —
May all beings be at ease!
It's downright miraculous when we respect a non-human life enough to honor it like this
This rat will be remembered for longer than I will, that's for sure
Some antispeciesist (and others) argue that giving more compassion to animals is a step to develop one’s compassion to others being, hence being nicer to others humans. On the opposite: accepting an horrendous practices toward non-humans animals makes ones more prone to accept horrendous practice toward humans.
I was vegetarian for some years, before ultimately deciding I just run better on an omnivore diet. But for environmental and ethical reasons I decided to make meat more of a side dish vs the center of the meal, and to mostly eat chicken vs more high environmental impact animal proteins like beef.
I think a lot of people that would never go full vegan can do well on this sort of less meat middle road.
Ask a woman (or think about it if you are one) how they would like being forcefully impregnated then having their tits constantly milked, year after year. As a bonus, the born kids are separated into girls to be milked in the same cycle and boys to be killed and eaten.
https://nautil.us/plants-feel-pain-and-might-even-see-238257
- http://apopo.org/support-us/apopo-visitor-center/
Real needle in a haystack stuff, wow
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47680882
For those reasons their effectiveness is limited.
A few km up the same road is the Cambodian Landmine Museum that has a couple of demo gardens where one can spectacularly fail find Lamdimes Found like 10 amd they were like one hundred, 2 right next to me…. Unfortunately that place which is run by a person called Aki Ra although having done a lot more work gets less financing.
Rats are so awesome, we just need to GMO them to live longer.
Also I love rats and totally agree they're tough pets because they don't live long enough. We had many of them growing up and spent a fortune removing tumors.
Nobody likes experimenting on animals, but it is use mice or orphans in third world countries. In silico and computational models are just not a good enough analogue for the human body.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monument_to_the_laboratory_mou...
So the hierarchy is
- our kids
- "third-world orphans"
- other species
For what it's worth, I'm not denying the benefit we obtain by testing on animals, nor am I suggesting that we live surrounded by rodents that we know to be vectors for multiple diseases that would affect us.
The comment above was merely an observation on the value of life and how little attention we pay to it.
We subject sentient beings to untold amounts of horror every day, and we are completely destroying the balance of life on earth with a system that is entirely devoted to serving humans--individual humans, not humanity.
The statue is not the point. The point is what this little creature did and how we might learn to show mercy and respect to our fellow sentient beings.
Source: recently finished getting rid of a rat infestation in my barn. they also reproduce at a crazy rate. Some poison + getting two barn cats = problem solved.
Part of these kinds of treaties is to accept some additional difficulty or expenses in defence for a more widespread benefit. I'm living in Finland and I would have accepted these.
I would not expect other countries to come to Finland’s aid if Finland had made such decisions.
But if that's the case, what are "all the force multipliers"? Chemical weapons? Biological weapons? What share of the GDP for defence?
I find some of the signatories laughable, as both sides in the Russia-Ukraine conflict have used them (with Ukraine being a signatory), while countries like Palestine and Eritrea have committed egregious human rights violations (since assenting), so I don't trust any commitment of theirs.
With respect to chemical and biological weapons, I think the reason they're not widely used is that they're relatively ineffective, and inconvenient, so I don't think they're a force-multiplier at all. Russia & Syria's (likely) uses of chemical weapons seem like more of a (mostly ineffective) desperate gamble than a brilliant move, though they demonstrate the non-existent consequences to such violations of treaty obligations.
International treaties tend to be always somewhat aspirational and are often violated and sparsely enforced. This does not mean they don't have any effect.
Personnel mines has been a topic of considerable public, political and military discussion about personnel mines in Finland for a long time and has been analyzed in depth. Even now, after a significant political mood change at around 2024, the official line (e.g. in the government proposal[1] that led to the withdrawal) is that personnel mines have mostly an auxiliary role in the defence strategy.
[1] https://www.finlex.fi/fi/hallituksen-esitykset/2025/56
Note the incredible restraint of Ukrainians troops in dealing with Russian civilians and captured Russian military. But that does not translate into 'let's handicap our own forces'.
The warmongers are on the other side of the border. Europe is just reacting to this and the states that have rescinded the landmine ban are all directly in the line of fire.
The diplomatic effort to save over a million men from needless massacre on the battlefield was not considered worthwhile by the ruling elites running Ukraine for the past two decades, in face of the immense profits to be made - by an elite few - in war profits.
In the interest of figuring out whether you profit from war or not, why don't you tell us the extent of your own investment in the military industrial complex which currently profits from propagating the "ma' Russia" trope ..
This is at best a conjecture. It's arguable what terms are acceptable and to whom, but Russia has offered and is offering substantially milder terms than taking all of Ukraine. They probably wouldn't even want western Ukraine if offered.
>Immigrant to Europe
To me, this reads as a banal attempt at doxxing, since you have assumed yourself the position of arbiter of moral authority, which is being challenged by my assertions - but since you choose to frame things in this context, I can say with positive certainty that my cosmopolitan, multi-national, multi-language lifestyle, carried on over 4 decades, has well and truly led me to what I consider to be an elevated position: that all cultures are arbitrary and choose war instead of peace overtly, and often blindly.
The narrative that "all Russians are bad" or that "Russia can never be trusted" is as banal as the narrative - although equally 'true' - that "all Americans are bad" and that "America cannot be trusted", also. The simple fact of the matter is, I know plenty of great Russians. And Americans. And Iraqis', and Afghani's, and Kurds and Israeli's and Iranians and Egyptians and a few great Brits, a very hilarious Yemeni family (also immigrants), and a handfull of other wonderful people, on the other side of the _label_.
Russia and Ukraine are in the mess they are in because their arbitrary cultures are perpetuating the hatred, like you, instead of postulating peace and prosperity, like me.
The simple fact is, our current set of nations, equally human, is currently too incompetent to attain the wishes of the greater human entity, which exists well and truly beyond the sphere of those claiming that "mouthpieces of Russian propaganda" are something to be worrying about.
And the reason for that incompetence is, in my well-travelled and -spoken opinion, due to one factor only: the laziness of those who would use "those of another culture, over there", to manifest their own self-hatred. Because, as an American, you must surely, surely understand that there is a growing stack of reasons for the rest of the world to hate America right now - and yet, here we are, having a civil discussion about the state of things.
It is my learned opinion that there are no greater or lesser, more inferior or superior cultures - that all humans have the same constraints hefted upon them in greater or lesser magnitude, and those of us who have the freedom of expression and travel to maintain a multi-cultural, cosmopolitan lifestyle, must never submit to those incapable of escaping the propaganda and hubris of their own mono-culture.
All culture is a lie, which only persists in the re-telling. "Russians are evil" and "Americans are evil" are lies, persisted by those who re-tell them, designed to keep Russians and Americans from doing great things, together.
And if you think this isn't applicable, in every single human case tested so far, then you need to travel more. And not as a tourist: as a local.
It's the only way to be sure you know what you're talking about with regards to world affairs...
Ukraine certainly could have chosen to accept Russia's demands, but the demand was essentially the extinguishment of soverign Ukraine, and the extinguishment of Ukrainian identity. At least, those were the demands I saw.
Not a lot of diplomatic room. Also, Ukraine had engaged diplomatically with Russia in the past, but it turns out there's no mechanism for Ukraine to enforce treaties that Russia signed.
This closely mirrors the actions of Russians in the 1940s against a number of countries in Eastern Europe. Exterminate doctors-lawyers-merchants to destroy natural leaders, and then exploit the working class people as slaves to the immigrant class of Russian masters. This is the blueprint of how Russia has grown from a small city-state to span 11 timezones. The parent poster mentioned banality several times. It's utterly banal to believe that you can smooth talk your way out of this.
As much as the poster criticizes Western attitudes, they end up reproducing one of the most characteristic ones: the belief that every conflict can be managed through negotiation and that there is always some mutually acceptable deal to be made. This reflects the Anglo-American bubble and bias toward materialism, which leads to serious misjudgements when applied to situations where motivations other than economic.
I am genuinely curious what you mean by this exactly? Do you see Finland as being led by warmongers?
Russia is not even the worlds #1 source of war-mongering, by a long shot. (The UK and the USA are, having murdered millions of innocent human beings since 2003 in multiple different theatres - countries and cultures deemed inferior by Western, fundamentalist, racist, ruling elites...)
I am not Russian, and can thus do nothing effective about Russia. I am a subject of the criminal 5-eyes western alliance which has murdered millions of innocent human beings since 2003, however, and I no longer believe in Western moral authority which gives us the imperative to 'do something about their war criminals' without "first taking care of our own war criminals", because we have far, far more heinously evil individuals still running the show with bloodied hands and with massive war crimes and crimes against humanity to answer for - yet we do nothing while bleating about Putin.
Animals are awesome, land mines are not. I hope we can avoid ever bringing that to our shores. Sadly, I know we now have air-mines (drones) so guess someone has to come up with drone sniffing pidgins or something (though obviously a parked drone probably doesn’t persist as long as a buried stationary mine and a flying drone less so).
War sucks.
Japanese researchers have already successful in detecting sub-surface bamboo shoots for culinary, because young bamboo shoot underneath the ground taste better than apparent overground ones.
Let's invent a landmines detection robotic device namely MAGAWA for Mines Apparatus Ground Assessment Waveform Analysis.
But it takes humans to decide how much work we're going to make for ourselves.
No one likes those shitty kids that keep making messes because they are entitled or angry.
From Google, 2019,
https://research.google/blog/learning-to-smell-using-deep-le...
[0]: https://www.sentienceinstitute.org/us-factory-farming-estima...
Others have statues of cats.
And others have statues of a mad clown king. To each their own.
We here have a few old statues mostly from people who won in "glorious wars". While the statues look ok (though, aged), at one point in time I wondered why we glorify these folks. I then concluded that statues showing humans is a rather outdated concept, IMO. Some of this is history though, but it is still outdated.
For all of the recipients. Tearing up a bit reading stories of courage that will never get the same recognition just because they weren't born a human.