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Archaeologists find Egyptian mummy buried with the 'Iliad' (openculture.com)
brudgers 16 hours ago [-]
Unearthed from a 1,600-year-old Roman-era tomb

That's c. 400 AD. Closer to today, than to the time of King Tut...and King Tut was closer to the TFA mummy than to the First Dynasty.

Ancient Egypt is really really old. The Great pyramid was 3000 years old at the time of the TFA mummy.

The TFA mummy is about equidistant between today and the events of the Iliad and the book was already more than 1000 years old in 400 CE.

vkazanov 10 hours ago [-]
Most people kind of merge the kingdoms together, while every kingdom is unique in both the culture and, say, external influence. And the late period is quite long as well.

There is a very strong connection between periods, of course. But 2500+ years of ancient egypt is a very long damn time. All of our modern history is, say, 3k years, starting with greeks, early chinese , india and all.

But egypt to me is like a star in the vast ocean of nothingness of early history. We know NAMES and DEEDS of people who lived 4500 years ago. We see things they've built, we can read words they wrote.

This is amazing.

Razengan 8 hours ago [-]
> But 2500+ years of ancient egypt is a very long damn time.

To put that in perspective, consider how long 100 years ago feels.. not in technological terms, but in human perception of time: The USA was founded 250~ years ago. Try to recall your own life from 20, 40, 50 years ago.. it's a literal lifetime. Most people only meet people as far back as their grandparents, just 2 generations back. Great-grandparents and the eras they grew up in are already almost impossible to relate to.. 2500 years is FIFTY such lifetimes!

So in "just" after 500 years the pyramids would already be a mythical unrelatable object to people from 2000 years before us...

I like to think Ancient Egyptians were descendants of the survivors from a Green Sahara and the pyramids were meant to be their post-apocalyptic marker in case the world went to further shit..

zikduruqe 5 hours ago [-]
> To put that in perspective

Star Wars debuted 37 years after World War II

Star Wars debuted 49 years from now

(Now I feel really old)

Razengan 5 hours ago [-]
The iPhone launched 7 years after 2000

The iPhone launched 19 years from now

Razengan 5 hours ago [-]
Sorry I meant "to people from 4000 years before us" because BC is negative years lol
mattfrommars 15 hours ago [-]
That sounds about right. People generally under estimate how old Ancient Egyptian really are, me included and think it sometimes around the era of Middle Ages.
adastra22 10 hours ago [-]
Ancient Egypt had archeological museums showing dug up artifacts of even more ancient Egypt.
adolph 4 hours ago [-]
Also dinosaur bones.

  As Mayor shows, the Greeks and Romans were well aware that a different breed 
  of creatures once inhabited their lands. They frequently encountered the 
  fossilized bones of these primeval beings, and they developed sophisticated 
  concepts to explain the fossil evidence, concepts that were expressed in 
  mythological stories. . . .

  Like their modern counterparts, the ancient fossil hunters collected and 
  measured impressive petrified remains and displayed them in temples and 
  museums; they attempted to reconstruct the appearance of these prehistoric 
  creatures and to explain their extinction. . . .
https://classics.stanford.edu/publications/first-fossil-hunt...
Melatonic 9 hours ago [-]
Isn't that just like our normal museums now ?
fecal_henge 9 hours ago [-]
Yes but much further in the future when someone else digs them up.
tclancy 6 hours ago [-]
No, the artifacts stayed where they were found. Different concept.
adastra22 5 hours ago [-]
Not the one I'm referring to. Which I just looked up and got the region wrong -- it was in Mesopotamia. It was an actual museum showing ancient artifacts in a building, 2,500 years ago. Some of the things in that museum were an additional 1,500 years old at the time they were on display.

It's a funny story because the modern archeologists who dug it up were very confused by finding objects from different regions and separated by hundreds or thousands of years, all in the same layer.

weirdmantis69 44 minutes ago [-]
You must have been cheering when they blew up the Buddhas of Bamiyan because at least white people didn't have them.
brudgers 14 hours ago [-]
In Ancient Egypt Ancient Egypt was ancient.
NetMageSCW 2 hours ago [-]
And I thought being able to trace my ancestors back 2600 years was impressive (okay, maybe 1500 non-apocryphal ancestors)!
mr3martinis 14 hours ago [-]
What is the “TFA” mummy?
maksimur 10 hours ago [-]
TFA originally meant "The Fucking Article" but on HN seems to have morphed its meaning to "The Fine Article" or "The Featured Article". I can't stop reading it as the former every time I come across it.
adastra22 10 hours ago [-]
Those multiple readings date back to Slashdot and have stayed consistent. It just means in plain speech the linked article in the original post. Now get off my lawn!
latexr 6 hours ago [-]
To expand on this: It started as “RTFA”, which is a riff on RTFM.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RTFM#List_of_similar_initialis...

Doesn’t really work as OP used it, though, as it gets confusing. They wrote “the TFA mummy” every time, so it becomes “the the fucking article mummy”. Like saying you’re a fan of the The Beatles.

brudgers 3 hours ago [-]
They wrote “the TFA mummy” every time

I had it both ways when it was first posted, about twenty minutes later after reading the “what is TFA?” comment I edited it to be consistent.

Only first line was the only “TFA” without the article…or with only one article? or is that two articles?

Anyway, the three article phrase “the TFA mummy” is equivalent to the three article phrase “the mummy in TFA” which is what I started to write.

And while “the TFA mummy” does not expand as cleanly as even I would wish, it has a better rhythm than “TFA mummy.” Or to put it another way, my poetic license removes “the TFA mummy” from grammar police jurisdiction.

NetMageSCW 2 hours ago [-]
But you missed a chance to call it the new mummy!
SAI_Peregrinus 2 hours ago [-]
That's related to PNS syndrome (PIN Number Syndrome syndrome (Personal Identification Number Number Syndrome syndrome)).
withinboredom 3 hours ago [-]
I am a fan of the Beatles. What’s wrong with that?
caminanteblanco 2 minutes ago [-]
It's about the article doubling, being a fan of the THE Beatles
cfiggers 14 hours ago [-]
The mummy that is the subject of The Friendly Article (the post that we're all commenting under right now).
14 hours ago [-]
14 hours ago [-]
Induane 14 hours ago [-]
That Fucking Asshole mummy from Bubba Ho Tep.
voidfunc 13 hours ago [-]
Great movie
airstrike 13 hours ago [-]
Obligatory "Cleopatra lived closer to the creation of the iPhone than she did to the building of the Great Pyramid"
moi2388 11 hours ago [-]
In time, not space.
raffraffraff 11 hours ago [-]
Well, if space is expanding and earth is revolving and spinning around the sun which is spinning around the milkyway which is moving through space then.... Was it really close in space either?
interstice 8 hours ago [-]
Local origin not global
7 hours ago [-]
raffraffraff 7 hours ago [-]
Or universal
elros 9 hours ago [-]
On a stressful day full of short deadlines and somewhat overwhelming work, thank you for the chuckle :-)
altmanaltman 7 hours ago [-]
they are both the same though
psychoslave 8 hours ago [-]
Pedantic side note maybe and sorry about that, but I found disturbing to see multiple "the TFA", where I guess TFA stand for "the fine article", so "the the fine article"?

If it’s about brevity, "the peg" is just as short and mean in journalism parlance "A topic of interest, such as an ongoing event or an anniversary, around which various features can be developed."

brudgers 2 hours ago [-]
I used the phrase “the TFA mummy” where the “the” is the article for “mummy.”

“The TFA mummy” has the same three articles as “the mummy in TFA” but one less word.

And pedantically, pedantry leaves the house when “TFA” walks in the door.

tclancy 6 hours ago [-]
I don’t think you’re reclaiming “peg”. Lost cause.
psychoslave 3 hours ago [-]
Everyone should be champion of some lost causes, not because their own have much chance to succeed, simply because otherwise they are all certain to never happen while in the first case, at scale, it’s almost guarantee that some will defeat the odds.

That said, "TFA" is ok, but "the TFA" seems even more extravagant than "PDF format"

dmos62 10 hours ago [-]
The pyramids aren't actually datable, because it's rock. Maybe if you were to find something with carbon that's provably from the time of construction, that could be used, but I don't think that happened. The popular datings for the older pyramids are educated guesses.

Edit: the Sphynx dating is even more controversial, because it seems to have rain erosion on it.

UberFly 10 hours ago [-]
Within the rock construction are wood beams, mortar and charcoal that are all datable.
dmos62 10 hours ago [-]
I stand corrected.
card_zero 9 hours ago [-]
There's also optically stimulated luminescence which can tell you when a rock was buried! I don't know that it's ever been used on a pyramid, but it exists.
brudgers 2 hours ago [-]
To the degree that is a scientific argument, the scientific research and scholarship underpinning it is a subset of the scientific research and scholarship underpinning the dates the contemporary Egyptology community ascribes to the pyramids.

Egyptologists can access science and have access to cultural artifacts and those artifacts include writing and that writing can be read and what can be read includes dates.

adastra22 10 hours ago [-]
The construction work camps for the pyramids have been dug. There is also wood, an organic matter in the Kings chamber and mortar inside the pyramid, which can be dated.
adolph 4 hours ago [-]
> aren't actually datable, because it's rock

To add to the methods shared by others, one way I think is really cool is optically stimulated luminescence.

  So, a grain of quartz destined someday to become the perfect OSL sample will 
  begin its journey by emptying its electron traps. This typically happens 
  through steady sunlight exposure, in a process called bleaching. Bleaching 
  resets the OSL clock. In this example scenario, the grain is fully bleached 
  by the sun as the wind blows it across the landscape, until it finally 
  settles and additional wind-blown material buries it.
  
  Once it is cut off from light, the OSL clock begins running. The sediment now 
  surrounding the quartz will include tiny amounts of radioactive isotopes, 
  exposing the quartz to a steady flow of ionizing radiation. The quartz 
  captures electrons from this radiation; the radiation flow is called the dose 
  rate. This is like the steady ticking of a clock. The quartz begins trapping 
  electrons, and because it is cut off from light, the trapped electrons will 
  continue building up at a fairly steady, measurable rate.
https://desert.com/osl/
zulux 17 hours ago [-]
>>If Christopher Nolan’s coming adaptation of the Odyssey happens to do well enough to get Hollywood back on its feet,

A typical laconic reply works here: "If"

protocolture 15 hours ago [-]
It looks pretty shonky.

I dont care about the casting.

But the costumes look like ass (One of the extras was saying he had fit into the same armor for a low budget sword and sandal film), they are using a viking longboat as a greek ship (have already seen half a dozen experts spitting chips over the difference in boat design). I just cant bring myself to care about the film.

"Oh its a fantasy film" its set in a historical time period, I wouldnt watch a WW2 Zombie movie if the nazi zombies were wearing viking armor driving an Abrams tank either.

jimnotgym 10 hours ago [-]
Would you choose the weapons, armour and tactics as described in the Iliad? Even though it is thought they are inaccurate for the time period that they think the Iliad is set? Not so easy I would say.

And the extra you describe, where does he appear on screen? Front and centre, or in the fourth rank behind the people in better costumes?

And the longboat, does it appear on screen in its original form, or with additions to make it look more period accurate?

bee_rider 9 hours ago [-]
> Would you choose the weapons, armour and tactics as described in the Iliad? Even though it is thought they are inaccurate for the time period that they think the Iliad is set? Not so easy I would say.

Either “best attempt at historical accuracy” (although that would have been difficult given the sparse record), or “true to Homer’s anachronistic story” would have been reasonable ways to go. Sounds like they picked neither, though…

RobotToaster 12 hours ago [-]
The costumes are completely wrong.

At least they bothered to CGI out the stirrups, but it's incredibly obvious from how he's sitting on the horse in the trailer.

Ladioss 4 hours ago [-]
I would do unfathomable things for a movie with period-accurate Bronze Age armor sets.
protocolture 12 hours ago [-]
I had forgotten about the stirrup controversy.
fecal_henge 9 hours ago [-]
Nothing like historical inaccuracy to stirrup some controversy.
cess11 6 hours ago [-]
"I wouldnt watch a WW2 Zombie movie if the nazi zombies were wearing viking armor driving an Abrams tank either."

OK, so you didn't watch Kung Fury?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kung_Fury

klausa 13 hours ago [-]
> "Oh its a fantasy film" its set in a historical time period, I wouldnt watch a WW2 Zombie movie if the nazi zombies were wearing viking armor driving an Abrams tank either.

WW2 Zombie movie with Nazis in Viking armors and random tanks sounds so much more _fun_ than a "historically acurate Nazi Zombie" movie!

zamadatix 12 hours ago [-]
Different strokes for different folks. I think they are just used to the common trope of people immediately telling them because one aspect of a movie/film/play is unrealistic they shouldn't care if the entire thing is nonsense. Vice versa though, nobody should mind others enjoy or make such content, beyond these kinds of statements that it's not for them.

I also more often enjoy films which sit between "100% realistic/accurate" and "anything goes" than either extreme itself. 100% realistic/accurate and it tends to already be known unless it's relatively bland. 100% anything goes and it can still be good but there is a high risk it ends up feeling like every other "anything goes" movie of the same topic. In between you can often get the best of both worlds - something new, but still unique.

protocolture 12 hours ago [-]
>I also more often enjoy films which sit between "100% realistic/accurate" and "anything goes" than either extreme itself. 100% realistic/accurate and it tends to already be known unless it's relatively bland. 100% anything goes and it can still be good but there is a high risk it ends up feeling like every other "anything goes" movie of the same topic. In between you can often get the best of both worlds - something new, but still unique.

I think that Nolan sells himself (The online worship can hardly all be organic) as an authentic, technical director interested in accurate physical props.

When mostly what he does is potter about and destroy sound design.

I agree no one is going to be 100% accurate and accuracy isnt always desirable. But an attempt? When thats the guys reputation? Doesnt feel like too much to ask for.

klausa 11 hours ago [-]
>I think that Nolan sells himself (The online worship can hardly all be organic) as an authentic, technical director interested in accurate physical props.

I'm not a huge Nolan-discourse-insider, but that seems like a pretty bizarre reputation to have for someone who's famous for directing three Batman movies, Inception, Interstellar and Tenet?

Is this reputation just because of Oppenheimer?

I haven't seen Dunkirk (and I'm not a WWII buff so couldn't tell if they used right planes/boats/guns/uniforms/whatever even if I tried), but even a short blurb on Wikipedia talks about a "balance historical accuracy with aesthetics that would favour the film stock".

SvenL 8 hours ago [-]
Well, interstellar has also some nerd stuff in it. If I remember correctly Kip Thorne did physics consulting on the movie and they even use a simulation running on a cluster to visualize the black hole physically correct.

They could have used some arbitrary CGI…but no, they wanted it accurate according to science.

https://arxiv.org/abs/1502.03808

klausa 5 hours ago [-]
Maybe we run in different circles, but I feel like “appreciates scientific accuracy” and “appreciates historical accuracy” are pretty disjoint sets?

Not entirely without overlap, but pretty distinct.

aragilar 6 hours ago [-]
And yet the rest of the movie runs on movie logic, enough so that every physicist I know rolls their eyes at it. It gives me the vibe of the "IFLS" crowd, not anyone who actually understands science.
prawn 6 hours ago [-]
Your sound design comment reminds me of seeing Inception in the cinema sitting next to a friend who works in sound (Frozen, John Wick films, etc). Early in the film, I offered him some of my popcorn, and he politely declined. I spent a good portion of the film partially distracted by the idea that maybe he didn't want to be crunching away on popcorn because he was keenly focused on thinking about the sound experience, and the cinema speakers and the like. I ate my popcorn even more quietly than usual.

After the film, I asked if he'd turned down the popcorn for professional reasons. He said, "No, I just didn't feel like popcorn."

vidarh 9 hours ago [-]
The example was really to me because one of the better Nazi zombie movies is Norwegian (Dead Snow) and given the Nazi obsession with old Germanic and Norse myths, it wouldn't seem wrong at all to come across Nazi Vikings in a movie like that.
joshuahedlund 5 hours ago [-]
For someone who purports not to care about the film, you seem very familiar with the discourse about it. (I have seen zero experts, or anyone really, discussing boat design.)
zulux 2 hours ago [-]
Stop noticing, eh?
ourmandave 5 hours ago [-]
Would you watch a 1965 WW2 "historical" movie if the Nazis were driving M47 Patton tanks?

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/world-war-ii/the-battle-of-...

kakacik 8 hours ago [-]
This is fairly typical level of detail for Hollywood, most of stuff they do around Europe is insulting as hell if one cares about the topic, historical stuff being the most visible source of offense.

Dumbed down far more than required for short movie transition of any topic. But I guess they know their US audience, their level of knowledge and care for authenticity better than me.

xdennis 11 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
anang 7 hours ago [-]
We've already accepted a lot of non-Greek casting, and always have. Movies like Troy are filled with people of German, English, Scandinavian whatever heritage, same here with The Odyssey.

I think they get a pass because we see Greek history as a shared western history, even though it's about as accurate as a black person in those roles.

So I think for a lot of people, when they see complaints about black actors playing historically "white" roles, what they're really seeing is a claim that black people don't have any right to our shared western heritage despite the fact that it's almost always a black person that has grown up in and only ever really been a part of western culture.

throwfaraway135 3 hours ago [-]
If you go to the streets of Athens and show them two pictures one of Diane Kruger and one Lupita Nyong'o, and ask them who they think represents Helena of Troy more I'm certain you are going to get Diane as the definitive answer.

I'm also certain that many will feel the casting of Lupita Nyong'o as cultural appropriation while the same will be less true for Diane Kruger.

I'm not saying the Greeks should decide who to cast in a US film, but the argument that if the actress isn't Greek then any other choice has the same level of accuracy is wrong.

anang 1 hours ago [-]
The Odyssey is not a documentary that sets out to be as visually authentic as possible, it's a drama. If we exclude black people from any roles in western canon, then doesn't that mean we're also excluding them from being part of western culture?
stavros 6 hours ago [-]
I don't know about what Americans think, but, as a Greek, the whole "whiteness" thing is an American social construct. There aren't whites and blacks in Greece, mostly because we don't have enough black people here to have a divide.

As far as I'm concerned, all your casting is wrong, it's not like Brad Pitt in Troy looks anything like a Greek person. Casting black people goes even farther, but it's just a matter of degree.

It does make sense, these are American movies, they're going to cast Americans, and the whole race issue is about who gets to star in them. There aren't enough Greek people in Hollywood to make a fuss about representation, so they don't get representation. It is what it is, but let's not pretend it's about accuracy or faithfulness to the original material, it's just about less racially biased casting.

anang 5 hours ago [-]
Yes, people that get upset about racially “incorrect” casting hand wave away casting someone of Irish decent as Greek because it falls into some sort of western bucket.

So when someone complains about a black person being cast as Greek, in a movie filled with people of English, Irish, Scandinavian and who knows else decent, what they’re actually saying is that black people will never have a right to the shared western culture.

protocolture 11 hours ago [-]
No I legitimately don't care about those things. They could cast the smurfs if they had a cool period boat and nice period armor.

You are the one who has some weird race based conditioning where you are hyper-vigilant where it comes to race and need to act offended about it.

Seek medical assistance.

modo_mario 10 hours ago [-]
To be fair it is fairly onesided towards european history/folklore/tales and noticably always with black people inserted making it feel like there's some very... american focus on this from the opposing perspective as well. (And when it's anything east asian they typically insert a white main character) Which isn't helped by the industry basically farming this situation from both sides with actors and articles claiming queen charlotte, cleopatra and such were back. (to the point of leading to legal complaints in egypt, etc)
verisimi 9 hours ago [-]
You care about the historical detail of the boats and armour, but don't care about the person (sex or colour)? And people who disagree with you need medical help?

Do you realise all the contradictions in your position? And then to suggest that the other person needs medical help for stating the obvious, indicates your malign intent. This is gas lighting, ie abusive behaviour. Your own conditioning is making you unable to see the obvious.

bazoom42 3 hours ago [-]
If you genuinely believe every actor should be Greek or Anatolian, that would be a fair and consistent position.
Fezzik 11 hours ago [-]
I’m just offended Helen isn’t depicted as having goose parts. After-all, Zeus was a goose when he seduced Leda, and Helen hatched from an egg. Some part of her must be goosey.

Edit: I meant swan. My recollection of mythology is rusty.

verisimi 9 hours ago [-]
A black or white swan?
throwfaraway135 8 hours ago [-]
One thing that always rubs me the wrong way in this type of situations, is how patronizing it is towards black people.

It got the "let little timmy play too" vibe all over it. It hints that there are no interesting historical events with black people having a major role in it that you would want to create a movie about.

enoint 3 hours ago [-]
One thing that might change your mind is the 20th century mythic cowboy. Where I’m from, maybe 1/4 cowboys were black. So we accepted that as whites-only theatre. Do we have to keep accepting whites-only theatre?
throwfaraway135 3 hours ago [-]
I think this makes my argument even more true. Imagine you have a budget and want to create a western/cowboy movie. You care about representation and want to have more black cowboys in the movies.

Option A: Take a story with a white cowboy, cast a black guy for him and shoot the movie.

Option B: Find a story of a black cowboy (and as you said there were many of them) and shoot a movie about it.

IMHO option A is patronizing while option B is empowering. Because option A assumes there were no black cowboys, there are no good stories too tell about black people.

enoint 3 hours ago [-]
Because dime novels were indeterminate about race, it’s not a binary set of options. Those novels relied on dialect rather than physical description.
throwfaraway135 2 hours ago [-]
I think we agree there are a lot of books which you can make movies about where it is more than reasonable to have a black cowboy protagonist.

And this is the right way to do things, and not by pity race swapping some famous character/historical figure.

bazoom42 5 hours ago [-]
Is it also patronizing towards Americans to have Brad Pitt play Achilles?
throwfaraway135 4 hours ago [-]
I don't get your argument. You can look at historical monuments or modern Greeks and Brad Pitt doesn't look to different from them.

Let me try to elaborate on my argument. Imagine you are in a park and there are three children playing, child A, B and C. Imagine child A has 10 toys, B has 7 and C 1.

Now if you forcefully took toys from A and B and gave them to C, then that's patronizing behavior as it means "you can't have your own toys, you need to steal them from someone else, you are not good enough".

A more respectful way of solving the dilemma for all involved parties is by just getting more toys for child C.

6 hours ago [-]
Induane 14 hours ago [-]
That's a whole ass Spartan letter.
felipellrocha 16 hours ago [-]
Because Nolan is known for his hits and misses
mrec 13 hours ago [-]
Not 100% sure whether you're being sarcastic but... yes? IMO more misses than hits, and the misses tend to miss by more than the hits hit.
dyauspitr 15 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
AlotOfReading 15 hours ago [-]
Would you be happier if they had cast the trans actor as the trans character (Tiresias), or would that also be a bridge too far?
dyauspitr 11 hours ago [-]
Tiresias was magically turned into a woman. He may as well have been turned into a rabbit.
michaelmrose 11 hours ago [-]
If a movie had a black actor in it would you say that the movie was about black ideology?
vkou 15 hours ago [-]
When a non-trans person stars in a film, nobody calls it a 'straight-cis' ideological hit piece.
defrost 15 hours ago [-]
It's literally just manufactured faux-concern about a rumour and a very very minor character role:

  Achilles does not actually appear as a living character in Homer's epic poem The Odyssey (as he dies in the Trojan War before Odysseus' journey home). 

  However, in Christopher Nolan’s upcoming film adaptation, the character is rumored to make a brief appearance as a ghost in the Underworld. Viral rumors suggested Elliot Page was cast in this role.
Nolan movies will continue to fail or succeed, it's a stretch for the GP commentor to tie that to a person cast for a bit part.
MaxHoppersGhost 13 hours ago [-]
Yeah he doesn’t appear as a living character in Homer’s poem but he does appear as a ghost in the poem when they visit the underworld (sorry for the spoilers). Not sure what difference it makes if Achilles shows up as alive or as a ghost but he is in the poem and it would be weird to have a non macho dude play Achilles.

Regardless I think it’s a bullshit rumor and people are running with it. The sad thing is how believable the rumor is.

defrost 13 hours ago [-]
> it would be weird to have a non macho dude play Achilles.

Odd. Remind me, wasn't it Achilles who spent a couple of years cross dressing as a girl while hiding out to avoid a fight?

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles_on_Skyros

  Buenos noches Senores y Senoras Bienvenidos

  La primera pregunta es: Que es mas macho, pineapple o knife?

  Well, let's see
  My guess is that a pineapple is more macho than a knife

  Si! Correcto! Pineapple es mas macho que knife
  La segunda pregunta es: Que es mas macho, lightbulb o schoolbus?

  Uh, lightbulb?
  No! Lo siento, Schoolbus es mas macho que lightbulb

  Gracias. And we'll be back in un momento
~ https://youtu.be/AY3OgLo8DUc?t=14
dyauspitr 11 hours ago [-]
I hate these gotchas but I can’t resist and it’s on a flagged comment so no one is really going to see this. Are you saying trans people are just cross-dressers?
tsimionescu 11 hours ago [-]
No, it just suggests that to call Achilles "macho" is extremely weird. And the GP didn't even mention his extreme emotionality at the death of his lover, Patrocles, which is like half his plot in the Illiad.
dyauspitr 11 hours ago [-]
I don’t think it’s a rumor. There’s literally a shot of her in the trailer.
xdennis 11 hours ago [-]
You can't have a 1.55m woman play the greatest Greek hero of all time. It's an insult to Greek culture. If Sydney Sweeney played Martin Luther King it would be equally insulting.
tsimionescu 5 hours ago [-]
A big part of Achilles' story in the Illiad is that he was hidden among a group of princesses, and that Odysseus had to use a trick to figure out which of the princesses he was. So, even though in other places he is described as quite manly, it also makes sense to portray him as having more feminine features if referencing this part of the canon.

I'd also note that Elliott Page is, of course, not a woman.

michaelmrose 11 hours ago [-]
If Greek machismo were blemished by mere fiction it would always have been eggshell thin. I have a feeling it shall hold up just fine as it has for millennia.
dyauspitr 11 hours ago [-]
Somehow Sydney Sweeney playing MLK or Samuel L Jackson playing Adolf Hitler actually sounds interesting though.
romanhn 15 hours ago [-]
> the fragment contains lines from Book 2’s epic “catalogue of ships,” which lists all the vessels the Achaean army sends off to Troy

It's been about 30 years since I've read The Iliad, but I remember that chapter as the worst part of the book. Just pages upon pages of names and where they came from. I wonder what significance it held for the buried individual to have been specifically included so.

lubujackson 12 hours ago [-]
This is an old technique that appears in Beowulf and other classic texts that came from oral traditions: it is cataloging. It is often used to list treasured collected or in this case to show expansiveness of the fleet (and memory of the teller, perhaps?)

Think about 10 year olds talking about all the different candies they are going to devour on Halloween night to get a sense of how it is meant to resonate with a crowd.

kombookcha 4 hours ago [-]
If the only way you could hear about Napoleon's battles was having a guy recount them to you in verse, I bet it would sound pretty impressive when he started listing off all the regiments present for a battle, their commanders and deployments. There's a sense of scale to it, that probably isn't captured by just saying "such and such number of ships and such and such number of soldiers".
psb5 13 hours ago [-]
Sounds like an Order of Battle that armies publish these days after a war which documents the entire list of units, unit size, commander, equipment, experience etc etc
pmcarlton 13 hours ago [-]
Maybe the undertaker agreed with you about it being the worst part, and that's why they used it for the burial!
zeafoamrun 5 hours ago [-]
People loved that damn catalogue enough to be buried with it! I guess tastes have changed.
rsalus 14 hours ago [-]
often times the classical Greeks + Romans would cite their family lineage using works of Homer and other poets
burnerRhodov3 13 hours ago [-]
probably traced his lineage back to one of those vessels.
RobotToaster 11 hours ago [-]
I imagine it served a similar purpose as a modern war memorial.
atombender 17 hours ago [-]
Dupe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47864056 (247 points, 93 comments, 28 days ago)
helsinkiandrew 4 hours ago [-]
Wasn't the Ptolemaic dynasty (300-30BC) Greek speaking and culturally Greek, presumably the Library at Alexandria had a full set of classic Greek texts.
stevesimmons 4 hours ago [-]
There's a great article on the Ptolemaic dynasty in the latest issue of the London Review of Books. Tons of fascinating detail.

https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v48/n09/robert-cioffi/pharao...

For instance, the Library of Alexandria had up to 500,000 scrolls (which of course were all handwritten). And it was partly stocked by confiscating all the books from any ship that happened to dock in the nearby port.

stingrae 18 hours ago [-]
This reminds me of a piece I just saw at the Legion of Honor (SF) special exhibit on the etruscans. They have a Etruscan manuscript, written on linen, that was used to wrap a mummy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liber_Linteus
hungryhobbit 17 hours ago [-]
Ironically a huge percentage of the historical documents we had came from "the garbage", and/or other cases of people reusing documents for other purposes.

In large part this was because paper was incredibly expensive back then, so it got used for one purpose, used again for another, and that continued until you were out of room ... at which point it may get used yet again (for say mummy wrapping).

Another classic example: Jews believed you couldn't burn a piece of paper once you wrote the name of God on it, so there were special towers in ancient cities for Jews to throw away their paper. But again, because paper was so expensive, each paper often had lots of other things on it.

Because these towers were sometimes preserved better than libraries were, historians have found huge treasure troves of saved papers in them. Like the mummy wrappings, they only still exist due to a special quirk of ancient peoples ... but because of the price of paper they have lots of other non-mummy-wrapping/non-God's name stuff.

AftHurrahWinch 16 hours ago [-]
> Jews believed you couldn't burn a piece of paper once you wrote the name of God on it, so there were special towers in ancient cities for Jews to throw away their paper.

Fascinating!

The Cairo Genizah

Located in the Ben Ezra Synagogue in Fustat (Old Cairo), Egypt, this particular Genizah was a massive, windowless attic room built high into the structure. To put papers in it, the synagogue's caretaker had to climb a tall ladder and drop the documents through a hole in the wall. Because the local community never got around to burying the papers, this high, hidden room acted like a time capsule for over a thousand years. When it was rediscovered in the late 19th century, it contained nearly 300,000 manuscript fragments.

thelock85 12 hours ago [-]
I recently bought a book, Letters of Medieval Jewish Traders, curated from these fragments.
RobotToaster 11 hours ago [-]
Even in relatively modern times people would write letters in both directions to save paper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossed_letter
markdown 13 hours ago [-]
Where I grew up, fish and chips was wrapped in actual newspaper.
pjmlp 11 hours ago [-]
Same with grilled chestnuts in Portugal, nowadays they use paper bags.
colechristensen 13 hours ago [-]
>In large part this was because paper was incredibly expensive back then

The largest contributor to having garbage as historical sources for western European cultures was the millennium-long program of genocide and cultural destruction perpetrated by Christians against anything or anyone non-Christian they could get their hands on.

It's no coincidence the few primary sources for pre-Christian religion we have from Europe comes from Iceland... it was the furthest away. Surviving works of European mythology like Beowulf and Snorri's eddas are filled with Christian references because that's the only way they survived.

Much much more existed 1600 years ago and would have survived if the empire had not converted.

baud147258 18 hours ago [-]
I am a little disappointed the tomb where the mummy was found is from the time where Egypt was part of the Roman Empire. At this point ancient Egypt had been a colony of Rome for quite some time and beforehand a Greek/Macedonian colony for a few more centuries (under the Ptolemaic dynasty, founded by a general of Alexander the Great). If it was from a previous era, it would have been a much more interesting find (in my eyes).
lkrubner 17 hours ago [-]
The Iliad was written after the classical era of Bronze Age Egypt, so no classical age mummy could be buried with the Iliad because it didn't exist yet.
bee_rider 9 hours ago [-]
That would have made it all the more exciting! Although less likely.
cucumber3732842 4 hours ago [-]
I think the point was that it would be a lot more interesting had it dated to a time prior to people for whom the Iliad was part of their culture were present in the region and when such artifacts would have been normal-ish

Finding american freed slave papers in a grave at Valley Forge -> ever so slightly interesting, we know those people were around there at that time.

Finding american freed slave papers in a grave outside an 1870s British encampment in Sudan -> very interesting how did this get here.

Or kind of like how finding Christian stuff in a roman grave varies a lot in implication by the year.

brudgers 13 hours ago [-]
At this point ancient Egypt had been a colony of Rome for quite some time and beforehand a Greek/Macedonian colony for a few more centuries

Before that, Egypt was mostly been ruled by invaders since the end of the New Kingdom around 1000 BCE.

Basically, with few exceptions Egypt was not ruled by a indigenous ruler for about 3000 years until Nassar.

gerdesj 17 hours ago [-]
The article describes the veneration Roman -> (old) Greek -> (old) Egyptian and this finding appears to show that the veneration went both ways.

Frankly I can understand that: Homer really did smash out an absolute banger with Iliad. I might ask for a copy in my grave too, when the time comes.

The whole point of the article appears to be that when civilizations overlap, the "good old days" becomes a two way street (to gargle metaphors). I do find that interpretation very interesting and it fits in with my world view that history ("historia" - Latin for "story") is generally rather more complicated than many would like it to be to fit their current (or current as was) world view.

NetMageSCW 2 hours ago [-]
I’m thinking I would pick Snow Crash. Or maybe The Matrix DVD.
shakna 17 hours ago [-]
I would hope for some further fragment of the Cypria to be uncovered.
yowo 4 hours ago [-]
1600 years old in Egypt isn't ancient
tiahura 16 hours ago [-]
The Catalog of Ships is certainly the section I want to be buried with.
kombookcha 12 hours ago [-]
Actually, now that I think about it, I guess there is a certain type of Tolkien nerd who would choose the long listing of elf lineages as the section to have in their pocket for their funeral.

I see your supernerd cred flex, mummified guy!

stinkbeetle 10 hours ago [-]
Back then, ships might almost have felt like the starships of our scifi today. Capsules that can transport mankind beyond the limits of the known universe to discover strange new worlds and civilizations. Certainly worthy of epic cataloging.
BobbyTables2 14 hours ago [-]
Died trying to read it all?
nullbio 14 hours ago [-]
I'm sure this is just a giant coincidence, given the timing of Chris Nolan's new movie, and couldn't possibly be fraud.
prawn 6 hours ago [-]
One possibility is that the finding as news is more likely to resonate and reach print given the looming movie?
bawolff 13 hours ago [-]
I mean, this is one of the most important works of ancient literature. The movie probably doesn't move the needle on how important the find is.

Also if it was fraud to capitalize on the movie, wouldn't they use the odyssey instead of the iliad?

adrianwaj 11 hours ago [-]
The article sounds convincing enough, but discoveries can easily be faked, just like crop circles can be made by farmers using rake-like devices.

Luxor and Las Vegas = same thing.

Not trolling, but it's worth keeping this notion in mind. It's great for tourism and building mystique. At least when there is fakery, it's makes the real thing all the more valuable.

Fakery sells movie tickets - it can sell plane tickets too.

People still love Milli Vanilli - so many don't even care because it's just entertainment.

How much of history is real, how much is entertainment (and diversion) by vested interests and the "winners" ?

justanotherjoe 5 hours ago [-]
You find it hard to believe...that Iliad was big? that 400 AD Egyptian medical practices involved quackeries?
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