I would expect anxious/insecure parents to use placating behaviours (like device use) themselves, and I would expect their children to be anxious/insecure too.
So I would expect the study to find that the children of phone-overusers were more likely to be anxious/insecure.
Still, I would also expect that less phone use (subbed with more attention to kid) would help the kid with this.
jb1991 1 hours ago [-]
I would love to get rid of my smartphone altogether, actually. I’m just not quite sure how to do it. I need to use a map app often. And most of the announcements and services in my country from companies and schools are all handled through WhatsApp. So it makes it a bit difficult to cut that tether.
KeplerBoy 57 minutes ago [-]
Getting a tiny phone not meant for media consumption is probably the closest you can achieve. You are not going to waste a lot of time watching youtube on a 3" screen, because that's just no fun.
The "jelly star" phone looks kind of fun. I just sat in a busy tram and wondered what the scene would look like if we all had phones like that. It's an innteresting thought experiment.
Ectiseethe 18 minutes ago [-]
> wondered what the scene would look like if we all had phones like that.
People with headphones looking absentmindedly straight ahead doing their best not to focus on anything, isolating themselves as much as possible to make the complete lack of personal space more bearable.
This is already what crowded subways in my city look like when you pass the threshold where people are too cramped to browse their phones. This is not a bad thing, just a coping mechanism.
I think there is much more room for behavior change if you consider people at a table (coffee or restaurant) with and without phones suitable for continuous media consumption or social network interactions.
jb1991 34 minutes ago [-]
Well I remember the days before the first smart phone and taking subways in New York City, so it’s not too hard for me to imagine. People reading books, talking to each other, very different.
tomatocracy 2 minutes ago [-]
Maybe it's a cultural difference but I remember before smartphones on the tube in London as well and noone talked to each other during the morning/evening commute.
I think the biggest difference is actually the lack of newspapers now. Plenty of people were plugged into headphones via iPod/Walkman/whatever was era appropriate. The people who stare at their phones today were staring at newspapers in the pre smartphone era.
That would be promising if it wasn’t for a ridiculous price tag. You shouldn’t have to pay a premium just to have features removed. The margin on that phone must be incredibly high.
olafmol 1 hours ago [-]
Now it's smartphones and devices, but in the past it was work. Personally I think these days kids get a lot more attention from their parents than anytime in the past. Even so much that it can be irritating/damaging (parents being "friends/playmates" instead of parents).
coldest_summer 42 minutes ago [-]
Beware the helicopters.
Give kids the freedom to make mistakes and suffer the (nonfatal, no loss of life or limb) consequences.
Yes, there are cases to intervene, but generally, you should let your kids hurt themselves more. Pain is a very important form of learning. By overprotecting them, they become very vulnerable adults, then worse things happen.
21asdffdsa12 30 minutes ago [-]
They also become dysfunctional adults, needing a replacement parent, when the parent disappears- which is mostly the state, sometimes a company - and always a example for stunted individual growth.
whizzter 35 minutes ago [-]
I think that's the issue in some cases though, while being totally absent is a major negative, the perception the kid has of the parent _while_ present is more improtant than when being absent if the absence is understandable, a kid in daycare will observe other parents leaving and picking up and normalize it.
le-mark 30 minutes ago [-]
> but in the past it was work.
I suggest that reading previously took the roll devices take today. When my parents weren’t at work they were reading as often as not; newspapers and novels.
socalgal2 53 minutes ago [-]
> (parents being "friends/playmates" instead of parents).
That seems like a cultural thing to me. It's common in some countries for daughters ~15yrs to ~40yrs to claim their best friend is their mom.
cpursley 30 minutes ago [-]
I don't think you understood what op meant. There's a difference between a child saying this and parenting style.
emil-lp 52 minutes ago [-]
A heads-up: Frontiers In is a publisher known to have extremely low quality.
30minAdayHN 25 minutes ago [-]
I was getting effected by the "technoference". A few friends when visiting us at our home, are being on phones, scrolling and engaging. I decided to buy a box. Any time friends visit us, they should drop their phones in that box and pick them up while leaving.
kqr 2 hours ago [-]
This can be tricky. I know my mother loves me unconditionally, but I also have strong memories of her shutting herself inside her study to read textbooks and journals, and children were not allowed to disturb unless she was strictly needed to handle an accident.
I have the same need for cognition as my mother, but I opt not to lock myself in my office. Instead I tell my kids, "I'm around if you need me and I'll keep an eye on you but I'm not currently a playmate; I'll be here reading on my phone."
The difference is my mother clearly separated relationship-building from study. I don't. This probably means I'm available more often, but with lower quality? I'm not sure. What is better? No idea.
andai 2 hours ago [-]
I don't have kids but I've been thinking about how, I would probably need some kind of office separate from the house.
In fact that's probably a big part of why offices exist in the first place. If I had kids here then for much of the day, they would be trying to interact with me and I would be either getting distracted from work or shooing them away.
What I'm actually there I would want to be fully present with them. It goes without saying that I would follow the example of the people who invented the stuff, and not give them a brainrot device in the first place.
moltar 48 minutes ago [-]
If you work from home you will absolutely need an office when you have kids.
petesergeant 28 minutes ago [-]
I have an intelligent, agentic adult spouse, and we both know that if we want to get work done, we should go to our own physical space and close the door, because otherwise the other person nearby will keep accidentally interrupting us because we're "just there". I think a child will struggle even more with this.
conductr 2 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
dang 25 minutes ago [-]
This crosses into personal attack and that is not allowed here.
Come on, it's a technical discussion on the art of parenting.
andai 2 hours ago [-]
My mom was always distracted so that's mostly how I remember her. We have all kinds of wonderful memories together but, what I think of her, the first thing that comes her mind is, her being in the same room as me but ignoring me.
noosphr 1 hours ago [-]
Kids also need their own time too. Having a parent constantly interfering is just as bad as having one never showing interest. And you're not a playmate, you're a parent.
conductr 28 minutes ago [-]
The implication was they were asking for a playmate and he’s shutting them down, he has a constant need for intellectual stimulation so has to read instead of engage. I’m all for alone time but if they need it you won’t have to say a word, they’ll just disappear off into their room.
Parenting is not a one dimensional role. A kid that doesn’t see their parent as a playmate is the saddest thing I’ve heard. I hope you’re saying that out of ignorance.
apsurd 2 hours ago [-]
+1 as adults we intellectualize way too much what kids are reasoning… they aren’t reasoning! they aren’t fully developed. it’s literally not that deep to them.
every year that passes, the idea of the only personal time one has is in the bathroom on the toilet hits harder and harder. there’s a whole back catalog of jokes about this; hiding in the bathroom, talking extra long. yep, checks out.
neuroticnews25 2 hours ago [-]
Are you supposed to allocate 100% of your free time to your kids?
conductr 35 minutes ago [-]
No. But from a very early age they can tell when you’re truly preoccupied versus opting to ignore them. And it has an effect on your relationship and how they’ll remember your presence as a parent.
Framing it goes a long way, “I have to clean the garage, then we can go swimming or play a game”. You’re telling them about something you have to do that they won’t be interested in, then offering up something positive.
Much different than, “I’m here, staring at my phone, bother me if you must”.
Also, these things go away soon enough. They won’t want you as a playmate anymore. During these early childhood years, I do my reading and alone time activities after bedtime. Nothing wrong with having an early bedtime just to reserve it for this purpose.
I’m not a pro parent by any means but these thoughts are certainly based on my parenting philosophy. I actively try to engage as much as possible even to the detriment of my personal hobbies and interests because while they want to engage, I want to be present.
zpeti 19 minutes ago [-]
That's ridiculous, you think when we were tribes in the jungle mother's didn't have something to do? Gather berries or cook etc? Even 50 years ago it wasn't phones, it was probably household chores that mother's "chose" over playing with their kids.
I really think people who want to feel guilty always find a reason to. Yes, don't avoid your kids over your phone, pay attention to them if they ask and need it, but you can still do other things (including looking at your phone) when around them.
shaky-carrousel 38 minutes ago [-]
Yes, I'm picking my phone over them. And that's fine. I need my own time too.
kalx 31 minutes ago [-]
[flagged]
marcus_holmes 36 minutes ago [-]
We should propose a ban on parental social media accounts in Australia, since it's proven to do harm to children.
dools 30 minutes ago [-]
I actually think we should extend the social media ban to anyone under 90
whatever1 4 hours ago [-]
Yes son. Go back to your iPad.
Aeolun 4 hours ago [-]
This tracks with my son’s observations on my wife’s phone use. She’ll tell him to stop watching youtube, then go right back to doing so herself.
It doesn’t really seem to compute how hypocritical that is.
sp8 17 minutes ago [-]
I remember the same from my childhood: being told off by my Mum for staring at something out of the window while she was doing the same. Mentioned it, got told off by my Dad. Did it affect me? I remember it 40 years later!
scotty79 4 hours ago [-]
About as much as telling your kid to not drink beer while you are doing it yourself.
Gigachad 3 hours ago [-]
Aside from the physical/chemical damage alcohol does to developing brains, alcohol addiction is bad for adults too. We just concede that after childhood you can make your own choice to ruin your life.
Phone addiction is harmful to everyone at all age groups. It's not really the individuals to blame through. The tech companies have broken human psychology and developed something more addictive than drugs.
dizlexic 2 hours ago [-]
Spoken like someone who hasn't really done drugs.
airstrafer 60 minutes ago [-]
I get what you’re saying but phone addiction has absolutely ruined people’s lives.
jb1991 1 hours ago [-]
Numerous studies have supported this thesis, that phone addiction is identical to a chemical addiction.
lucumo 47 minutes ago [-]
Which studies?
The claim is usually made without specific citations. The few studies I'm aware of show correlation between mental health issues and phone use, but don't show which way the causation runs. It's just as plausible that mental health causes more phone use, yet these message boards always like to blame the phone for the mental health issues.
acessoproibido 44 minutes ago [-]
5% of all deaths worldwide can be attributed to alcohol.
Phone addiction is not identical. In some aspects its similar but in most others not.
gyomu 1 hours ago [-]
Can you share studies that show they’re “identical”?
You’re not going to overdose from using your phone too much, or die from withdrawal if you suddenly stop using your phone, so that seems like a stretch.
skybrian 1 hours ago [-]
What’s an example of a study that you think is convincing?
mystifyingpoi 2 hours ago [-]
The phrase "drink beer" could mean anything from 2 beers on a sunny weekend to 6-pack every night. They are not comparable.
bowsamic 2 hours ago [-]
Why would I tell my son not to drink beer? He can do so as soon as it’s relatively safe to
conductr 2 hours ago [-]
“Relatively safe to” is a very official sounding rubric. I guess tell him that and see if you agree on the timing of when that safety threshold has been met.
Telling your kid to not drink beer is giving them the courage to say no to drinking beer. I personally don’t just bark out rules with no context. I also have discussions with my kid about why drinking beer can go awry. We all expect that they will, likely before we’d feel it’s relatively safe. So I want him to at least know what’s in store and how to not make compounding mistakes.
21asdffdsa12 22 minutes ago [-]
Bell curve leveling off right after return-warranty runs out
tayo42 4 hours ago [-]
Wyh can't it be something like I don't want you to end up like me? I don't think it's hypocritical
Changing habits is hard enough on it's own.parenthood and modern life makes that even more difficult
r_lee 3 hours ago [-]
this is what naive adults think, don't you remember how it was when you were a kid?
I seriously, I feel like so many people just somehow magically forget their entire childhoods, maybe selectively?
I lack the ability to lie to myself like that unfortunately
StefanBatory 1 hours ago [-]
I have ADHD; I genuinely don't remember my childhood. If you told me my life started in secondary or high school, I would have believed you.
mc3301 1 hours ago [-]
I dunno if that is connected to ADHD, and I dunno if I have ADHD (though by reading the textbook* on it, it kinda seems I do)... but I genuinely don't remember my childhood either.
*Taking Charge of Adult ADHD
rmunn 41 minutes ago [-]
> ... by reading the textbook* on it [ADHD], it kinda seems I do ...
There's a reason why most of the books I've read on ADHD have mentioned "Don't self-diagnose; get an expert to diagnose you." Short version: many of the symptoms of ADHD such as distractability happen to everyone, or nearly everyone, to some extent. Everyone can be distracted by a random thought; most people shake it off and get their train of thought back on track. Some people are more distractable than others, but it's perfectly normal to be distracted now and then. Which is why most people reading an ADHD book will recognize some of their behaviors in that book.
My opinion? (And note that I'm not qualified to diagnose anyone, so this is strictly an opinion). If you read the ADHD book and go "Hmm, maybe that describes me, I'm not sure"... then chances are that you do not have ADHD. Because my own experience was reading an ADHD book and going, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait. I know for a fact this author never interviewed me. So how come he's describing me perfectly?" Not in every single chapter — I don't have emotional-regulation problems to nearly the level that he described in some of the case studies, for example. But when I got to the bits about starting projects and not finishing them, or the parts about getting (seemingly-paradoxically) hyperfocused on some task and not noticing when other people are talking to you, I just shook my head and laughed, because he was describing me to a T.
Now, even if you don't have ADHD, that doesn't mean some of the organizational techniques mentioned there won't be helpful to you. Go ahead and apply them: many of them do help even the people who fit more into the "normal" part of the distractability spectrum. But certainly do NOT try any medication without having gotten a diagnosis first. Some ADHD medications can have side effects that should be watched for, and most of them are controlled substances in most countries I'm aware of (due to the possibility of addiction if you take way more than the amount normally prescribed, for example), meaning that in most countries, it's illegal to take them without a prescription.
But go ahead and apply some of the suggestions about ways to organize your life: they can be helpful even if you only have a normal level of distractability.
mc3301 2 minutes ago [-]
Thanks for the wonderfully thought-out response. I definitely agree on the not-self-diagnose-yourself front. I'm somewhere in between your two possible reactions to such books, leaning closer to the "Whoa, whoa, whoa" one.
However, I live in Japan, where simply finding a doctor qualified and willing to diagnose someone over 20 years old is super rare. Short of expensive monthly trips to Tokyo or something just to be diagnosed, and then having a prescription that has to be received in person monthly. And the medication is highly controlled.
So I have just kinda accepted to keep applying these techniques (as well as being aware of my own created mechanisms), keep trying my best, and just live a happy life. It's been working so far!
fouc 3 hours ago [-]
it's like a variation of the principle of "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it"
a solipsistic viewpoint I suppose.
tayo42 3 hours ago [-]
I have no idea what your trying to say or what point you're trying to make.
r_lee 3 hours ago [-]
ask an LLM or something, they seem to get the point just fine
microtonal 2 hours ago [-]
Changing habits is hard enough on it's own. parenthood and modern life makes that even more difficult
It is possible to make changes, I would say this is one of the easier bad habits to beat. The best is to start with fixed moments where you as a family decide phones are forbidden. For example, shortly after our daughter was born, we decided "no phones during eating (breakfast/lunch/dinner)". When both parents are in, it is easy to mutually enforce. For over a decade, we have never used a phone during dinner and it's one of those moments of family time.
Now we are always surprised when we have dinner together at a restaurant that some people are on their phones half the time (sometimes doing useless stuff like checking Facebook/insta), rather than enjoying each other and dinner. It's so weird.
Another good method is to remove addictive social media from your phone. Primarily games and apps with algorithmic timelines like Facebook, Instagram, X, Reddit, etc. I removed all those from my phone. I noticed with apps that do not have an algorithmic timeline, like Mastodon, you catch up once and after that it's not interesting anymore.
tayo42 2 hours ago [-]
It's not impossible,but on top of all the other stresses in life you need to sit down and figure out this new problem too? You have got to at least sympathize with the situation. I know I've regressed on phone use since my child was born.
noosphr 2 hours ago [-]
Children follow by example. If you're an addict your kids will be too.
acessoproibido 42 minutes ago [-]
Untrue and toxic statement
paytonjjones 4 hours ago [-]
This is a weak study that is exemplary of psychology's weak experimentation culture and correlation/causation laundering, especially with regard to self-report.
The heavily hinted implication is that device use damages relationships. But look at what they actually measured. They ask adolescents to answer questions like:
"My primary caregiver ignores me when they are on a device." (DAIS, their new scale)
And then also ask them to answer questions like:
"I often worry that this person doesn't really care for me." (ECR-RS)
And then act like it's a revelation that these two self-report scales are correlated.
A much more plausible causal explanation is that a single psychological variable (e.g. a bad relationship) causes both self reports, rather than the implied pathway that device use causes A, which then causes B.
irjustin 4 hours ago [-]
I largely agree this is a weak study, but it also feels like no matter how you run this study it's going to be flawed.
Parent-child interactions, relationships, feelings are probably the hardest thing to quantify at any scale.
In the end, it's really, "Pay more attention to your kids", which is a pretty good universal message to put across.
andai 2 hours ago [-]
I forget the terminology but I read something recently about how people are paying too much attention to their kids and it's making their kids neurotic.
Like when kids were growing up a couple decades ago they could just do whatever they wanted and those folks turned out all right. And now we've got people obsessing over where their children are and literally tracking their location, and the results don't seem to be so great.
(I heard that this difference had actually been quantified but unfortunately I don't have a link.)
I remember something about how, some percentage of children are not even allowed to leave the yard. Whereas their parents were just roaming for miles, at a much younger age.
Although I suppose at the same time, we're also less present with each other. So I guess there's at least two dimensions to that.
I guess the first one would be, are you relaxed and do you trust them to take care of themselves, even at a young age.
And the second one would be... are you actually there, or is it just your body that's there.
dinfinity 1 hours ago [-]
It's an interesting question:
Are people who are very very securely attached to their parents happy later in life, or is there a ceiling? The terminology invites certain conclusions here.
Maybe the whole attention thing is more a matter of quality, rather than quantity
makeitdouble 3 hours ago [-]
There is always a question of whether a bad study is better than no study.
I think weak studies validating people's natural intuitions tend to do more damage than we give them credit for. Even if another better d signed study does way more work and comes with clear results that disprove the natural intuiton, it will be buried in the sea of low effort studies and people will already have settle the issue in their minds as "proven by science".
somenameforme 2 hours ago [-]
100%. I completely agree with this study's 'findings' but also agree the study is garbage.
So many studies now a days have experiments designed to confirm a hypothesis instead of challenge it. They should be doing everything possible they can to disprove their hypothesis and only accept it after all attempts at falsification fail. But of course that's in idealized science. In reality, publish or perish means you need to get something published and negative results don't get published. And so this study, like what seems to be most now a days, is designed to prove their hypothesis - which ironically proves nothing.
rmunn 36 minutes ago [-]
This (experiments only designed to confirm a hypothesis and not trying to falsify it) is also part of the reason why so many studies can't be reproduced later, the "reproducibility crisis". One of my relatives, a medical doctor who just recently retired, has often lamented the incentive structure that results in negative results not getting published. (She has also said that she wants to see about seven studies pointing in the same direction before she starts to take it seriously).
paytonjjones 4 hours ago [-]
A better version of this study would be to run an experiment where you take away (or heavily restrict) parental phone access over a month or two and measure the parent-child relationship vs. a control group.
> "Pay more attention to your kids", which is a pretty good universal message to put across.
Why is that much more plausible? It implies that it has always been there, and that nothing has changed since the last century, which is unlikely. Unless you want to introduce some other recent factor, but that is going to be even less likely.
And why? Because other studies have shown how addictive "phone" use is, and how it isolates people. And addicts (drugs, alcohol) are bad caretakers.
So there's really nothing that makes the explanation implausible.
You may ask yourself if it's not your own addiction speaking.
twnettytwo 3 hours ago [-]
IMO this isn't necessarily bad (it's one way to get data), but the numbers are meaningless without a control. Unfortunately, I think we missed that bus by ~20 years. Had the same study been conducted every few years over the last two decades, I think it would have been valuable. Maybe it is still valuable to do this once every few years? (I think that everyone in 2026 is maximally addicted to mobile phones, but maybe I'm wrong and it can get worse).
tangenter 4 hours ago [-]
My dude, I don’t know how to explain this to you but phones and computers are addictive for people. They get hooked on them to feed the lizard brain with digital junk food engineered for engagement.
etrautmann 4 hours ago [-]
That’s irrelevant to the issue with the study that the parent identified.
Groxx 4 hours ago [-]
Manipulating "studies" doesn't help reveal how true this is (or even if it is, do we perhaps have an inherent level of addiction and phones are just an easy target?), nor help find effective ways to reduce it.
xg15 24 minutes ago [-]
The attention economy is a resource extraction industry. It'll claw out any bit of attention it can get and sell it, even if that attention would be needed elsewhere.
shareholderzero 3 hours ago [-]
[dead]
godwinson__4-8 2 hours ago [-]
I often wonder why even today with falling birthrates so many people have kids. It's a personal decision, so not something you would randomly bring up with strangers and not something one really thinks to discuss with friends until someone has a kid. Once they are on the path to question it would be rude.
But it strikes me that many parents don't really think about it that much, as in the original rationale. I've had a suspicion there is something unethical about this. What choice could be more significant? Then again, maybe the personal nature of it means one is simply not aware of what other people are going through. Maybe everyone is really thinking it through. I am led to doubt it though. I'm curious if other people have had the chance to ask their own parents and felt satisfied by the results. That might be one of the few occasions you might have hope for a somewhat revealing answer.
There are so many reasons it's hard to be exhaustive.
Selfishly, nobody will love me like my children, at least in their early years. They're also amazing playmates and students. And they give me social permission to do silly things like climb on playground structures. They're also a great excuse to get out of stuff.
Selflessly, I believe me and the mother of our children are sensible people and the world needs more sensible people. Plus someone needs to maintain the replacement rate. And it's a weird, warm, fuzzy feeling to care for one's children at one's own expense.
In the intersection, it's a fun challenge to try to achieve balance in life, work, and family. I also really appreciate the chance to get a do-over of everything my parents did, keeping the good stuff and improving on the bad.
andsoitis 2 hours ago [-]
> why so many people have kids
Biology / evolution. The drive to reproduce is baked in by natural selection. Organisms that didn’t want offspring didn’t pass on genes.
mikestorrent 2 hours ago [-]
Sounds like an answer from a non-parent, honestly. There's a lot more to it than that, and virtually every couple I know with children thought about it a lot before going ahead.
The number one reason is because they see other families and the love and joy that their children bring into their lives. This is inspiring, and brings people around to making the decision, even if they know the sacrifices they will have to make.
Boiling it all down to pure biology is stripping parents of agency to fit your worldview.
estetlinus 24 minutes ago [-]
Actually, this sounds like an answer from a male non-parent. There’s a drive to reproduce in every biological being. It has never been about comparing towards neighbors, love and joy, etc. I’m a parent, and honestly, it’s just biology.
tchalla 1 hours ago [-]
I don’t see a disagreement between you and parent comment.
sevenzero 2 hours ago [-]
So they have kids for their personal joy and completely ignore if their kids even have a chance of a good future, got it. I am sad when I see what kids will be confronted with in the long term. Humans nowadays already cant cope with climate change and wars, this will only be multiplied tenfold for our kids.
rmunn 29 minutes ago [-]
That's not what the comment you were replying to (I'm going to avoid using terms like "parent comment" in this particular discussion as they could easily be ambiguous, heh) was saying. You may have missed the part about how "they thought about it a lot before going ahead" (emphasis mine), and also the part about "even if they know the sacrifices they [the parents] will have to make".
Personally, I know (online rather than in person) at least one couple who thought about it a lot, and ended up deciding not to have kids, because they were both carriers of a recessive gene (I forget which) that could have been nasty to whatever kid ended up with both copies. Which is kind of the opposite of "completely ignor[ing] if their kids even have a chance of a good future", IMHO. Other parents thought about it and decided to have only a certain number of kids and no more, because that was how many kids they could afford to raise and launch into a path that potentially leads to a good future.
Now, are there people who have kids for selfish reasons? Yes. I can think of some examples. But the people who think about it a lot and end up deciding to have kids? They're usually (not always, of course, but usually) some of the best parents around, precisely because they've thought about the sacrifices they would have to make and decided they're willing to make them for the sake of their kids' future happiness.
foxglacier 33 minutes ago [-]
10x worse than the best time in all of history to be a human doesn't sound so bad. Even just 200 years ago, a gigantic chain of internal wars killed 25% of the entire population of my country.
sevenzero 2 hours ago [-]
Weird how I dont have this drive huh
eloisant 2 hours ago [-]
Not that weird, you're in the majority now and birth rates are plummeting all over the world.
sakopov 25 minutes ago [-]
I've seen men shed their egos and women become incredible caretakers when they're with their children and they carry some of that joyfulness, compassion and humanity into the world they occupy. It's a sad world without kids.
jstanley 2 hours ago [-]
> I've had a suspicion there is something unethical about this.
Why?
As a human being who was once born, I am extremely grateful for my existence, and how much thought my parents put into it beforehand is of practically no consequence.
You seem to imply that if parents haven't already committed to giving their kids a perfect childhood with perfect parenting then the kids are better off not living at all?
godwinson__4-8 2 hours ago [-]
You can browse the Wikipedia article I linked. It offers a few possible answers to this why question.
As for myself I would simply summarize that making an important choice such as bringing life into the world, without considering the consequences, is already somewhat unethical. One should think before taking an action that has irreversible consequences to anyone. In this case, the person being born. I wouldn't say I'm an antinatalist, I just find it interesting. On a rational level I'm not sure there are many good arguments against some of the conclusions there. If there are I'd be interested in hearing them. The fact that you are personally grateful for your existence is a pretty weak argument imo. If you had never been born you would not be around to know the difference. However had your existence been different it is not so hard to imagine you might feel differently. Surely your life is not so peachy that a scan of that article will be incomprehensible to you. Then again, perhaps you simply lived a far better life than I.
I'm not taking a position one way or the other. As I said, I just find it interesting.
jstanley 1 hours ago [-]
I did skim the Wikipedia article but it didn't seem to engage with anything I was thinking about.
Almost everybody's revealed preference is to stay alive rather than to not be alive, otherwise we'd see a lot more suicide.
> making an important choice such as bringing life into the world, without considering the consequences, is already somewhat unethical.
This is a view you can take, but it's not as obviously important as you seem to think.
An alternative view is "making an important choice such as FAILING to bring life into the world, given the opportunity to do so, without considering the consequences, is somewhat unethical."
If the standard was truly that you can't have kids unless you're sure they're going to have a great life, then we would have gone extinct millions of years ago.
Tade0 11 minutes ago [-]
> However had your existence been different it is not so hard to imagine you might feel differently.
Considering how the vast majority of people don't actively seek to end their lives, I think it's reasonable to assume that they prefer to live.
The crown argument against these musings is that according to them the only way to realistically act ethically is to not have children at all - that is self-defeating and not sustainable.
Also it places emphasis on avoiding harm/suffering etc. Problem is, these are unavoidable parts of life and trying to minimise them at any cost is essentially attempting to not live.
I think the term sometimes used for such things is "death cult".
CalRobert 2 hours ago [-]
Group 1: Some people think about it and don’t have kids,
Group 2 some think about it and do,
Group 3 and some don’t think about it much and are (probably) more likely to end up with a kid than group 1 because most people like having sex and this group will be less careful than group 1.
blitzar 32 minutes ago [-]
This is the pitch from Idiocracy
Rendered at 08:15:29 GMT+0000 (Coordinated Universal Time) with Vercel.
So I would expect the study to find that the children of phone-overusers were more likely to be anxious/insecure.
Still, I would also expect that less phone use (subbed with more attention to kid) would help the kid with this.
The "jelly star" phone looks kind of fun. I just sat in a busy tram and wondered what the scene would look like if we all had phones like that. It's an innteresting thought experiment.
People with headphones looking absentmindedly straight ahead doing their best not to focus on anything, isolating themselves as much as possible to make the complete lack of personal space more bearable.
This is already what crowded subways in my city look like when you pass the threshold where people are too cramped to browse their phones. This is not a bad thing, just a coping mechanism.
I think there is much more room for behavior change if you consider people at a table (coffee or restaurant) with and without phones suitable for continuous media consumption or social network interactions.
I think the biggest difference is actually the lack of newspapers now. Plenty of people were plugged into headphones via iPod/Walkman/whatever was era appropriate. The people who stare at their phones today were staring at newspapers in the pre smartphone era.
Give kids the freedom to make mistakes and suffer the (nonfatal, no loss of life or limb) consequences.
Yes, there are cases to intervene, but generally, you should let your kids hurt themselves more. Pain is a very important form of learning. By overprotecting them, they become very vulnerable adults, then worse things happen.
I suggest that reading previously took the roll devices take today. When my parents weren’t at work they were reading as often as not; newspapers and novels.
That seems like a cultural thing to me. It's common in some countries for daughters ~15yrs to ~40yrs to claim their best friend is their mom.
I have the same need for cognition as my mother, but I opt not to lock myself in my office. Instead I tell my kids, "I'm around if you need me and I'll keep an eye on you but I'm not currently a playmate; I'll be here reading on my phone."
The difference is my mother clearly separated relationship-building from study. I don't. This probably means I'm available more often, but with lower quality? I'm not sure. What is better? No idea.
In fact that's probably a big part of why offices exist in the first place. If I had kids here then for much of the day, they would be trying to interact with me and I would be either getting distracted from work or shooing them away.
What I'm actually there I would want to be fully present with them. It goes without saying that I would follow the example of the people who invented the stuff, and not give them a brainrot device in the first place.
If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
Parenting is not a one dimensional role. A kid that doesn’t see their parent as a playmate is the saddest thing I’ve heard. I hope you’re saying that out of ignorance.
every year that passes, the idea of the only personal time one has is in the bathroom on the toilet hits harder and harder. there’s a whole back catalog of jokes about this; hiding in the bathroom, talking extra long. yep, checks out.
Framing it goes a long way, “I have to clean the garage, then we can go swimming or play a game”. You’re telling them about something you have to do that they won’t be interested in, then offering up something positive.
Much different than, “I’m here, staring at my phone, bother me if you must”.
Also, these things go away soon enough. They won’t want you as a playmate anymore. During these early childhood years, I do my reading and alone time activities after bedtime. Nothing wrong with having an early bedtime just to reserve it for this purpose.
I’m not a pro parent by any means but these thoughts are certainly based on my parenting philosophy. I actively try to engage as much as possible even to the detriment of my personal hobbies and interests because while they want to engage, I want to be present.
I really think people who want to feel guilty always find a reason to. Yes, don't avoid your kids over your phone, pay attention to them if they ask and need it, but you can still do other things (including looking at your phone) when around them.
It doesn’t really seem to compute how hypocritical that is.
Phone addiction is harmful to everyone at all age groups. It's not really the individuals to blame through. The tech companies have broken human psychology and developed something more addictive than drugs.
The claim is usually made without specific citations. The few studies I'm aware of show correlation between mental health issues and phone use, but don't show which way the causation runs. It's just as plausible that mental health causes more phone use, yet these message boards always like to blame the phone for the mental health issues.
Phone addiction is not identical. In some aspects its similar but in most others not.
You’re not going to overdose from using your phone too much, or die from withdrawal if you suddenly stop using your phone, so that seems like a stretch.
Telling your kid to not drink beer is giving them the courage to say no to drinking beer. I personally don’t just bark out rules with no context. I also have discussions with my kid about why drinking beer can go awry. We all expect that they will, likely before we’d feel it’s relatively safe. So I want him to at least know what’s in store and how to not make compounding mistakes.
Changing habits is hard enough on it's own.parenthood and modern life makes that even more difficult
I seriously, I feel like so many people just somehow magically forget their entire childhoods, maybe selectively?
I lack the ability to lie to myself like that unfortunately
*Taking Charge of Adult ADHD
There's a reason why most of the books I've read on ADHD have mentioned "Don't self-diagnose; get an expert to diagnose you." Short version: many of the symptoms of ADHD such as distractability happen to everyone, or nearly everyone, to some extent. Everyone can be distracted by a random thought; most people shake it off and get their train of thought back on track. Some people are more distractable than others, but it's perfectly normal to be distracted now and then. Which is why most people reading an ADHD book will recognize some of their behaviors in that book.
My opinion? (And note that I'm not qualified to diagnose anyone, so this is strictly an opinion). If you read the ADHD book and go "Hmm, maybe that describes me, I'm not sure"... then chances are that you do not have ADHD. Because my own experience was reading an ADHD book and going, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait. I know for a fact this author never interviewed me. So how come he's describing me perfectly?" Not in every single chapter — I don't have emotional-regulation problems to nearly the level that he described in some of the case studies, for example. But when I got to the bits about starting projects and not finishing them, or the parts about getting (seemingly-paradoxically) hyperfocused on some task and not noticing when other people are talking to you, I just shook my head and laughed, because he was describing me to a T.
Now, even if you don't have ADHD, that doesn't mean some of the organizational techniques mentioned there won't be helpful to you. Go ahead and apply them: many of them do help even the people who fit more into the "normal" part of the distractability spectrum. But certainly do NOT try any medication without having gotten a diagnosis first. Some ADHD medications can have side effects that should be watched for, and most of them are controlled substances in most countries I'm aware of (due to the possibility of addiction if you take way more than the amount normally prescribed, for example), meaning that in most countries, it's illegal to take them without a prescription.
But go ahead and apply some of the suggestions about ways to organize your life: they can be helpful even if you only have a normal level of distractability.
However, I live in Japan, where simply finding a doctor qualified and willing to diagnose someone over 20 years old is super rare. Short of expensive monthly trips to Tokyo or something just to be diagnosed, and then having a prescription that has to be received in person monthly. And the medication is highly controlled.
So I have just kinda accepted to keep applying these techniques (as well as being aware of my own created mechanisms), keep trying my best, and just live a happy life. It's been working so far!
a solipsistic viewpoint I suppose.
It is possible to make changes, I would say this is one of the easier bad habits to beat. The best is to start with fixed moments where you as a family decide phones are forbidden. For example, shortly after our daughter was born, we decided "no phones during eating (breakfast/lunch/dinner)". When both parents are in, it is easy to mutually enforce. For over a decade, we have never used a phone during dinner and it's one of those moments of family time.
Now we are always surprised when we have dinner together at a restaurant that some people are on their phones half the time (sometimes doing useless stuff like checking Facebook/insta), rather than enjoying each other and dinner. It's so weird.
Another good method is to remove addictive social media from your phone. Primarily games and apps with algorithmic timelines like Facebook, Instagram, X, Reddit, etc. I removed all those from my phone. I noticed with apps that do not have an algorithmic timeline, like Mastodon, you catch up once and after that it's not interesting anymore.
The heavily hinted implication is that device use damages relationships. But look at what they actually measured. They ask adolescents to answer questions like:
"My primary caregiver ignores me when they are on a device." (DAIS, their new scale)
And then also ask them to answer questions like:
"I often worry that this person doesn't really care for me." (ECR-RS)
And then act like it's a revelation that these two self-report scales are correlated.
A much more plausible causal explanation is that a single psychological variable (e.g. a bad relationship) causes both self reports, rather than the implied pathway that device use causes A, which then causes B.
Parent-child interactions, relationships, feelings are probably the hardest thing to quantify at any scale.
In the end, it's really, "Pay more attention to your kids", which is a pretty good universal message to put across.
Like when kids were growing up a couple decades ago they could just do whatever they wanted and those folks turned out all right. And now we've got people obsessing over where their children are and literally tracking their location, and the results don't seem to be so great.
(I heard that this difference had actually been quantified but unfortunately I don't have a link.)
I remember something about how, some percentage of children are not even allowed to leave the yard. Whereas their parents were just roaming for miles, at a much younger age.
Although I suppose at the same time, we're also less present with each other. So I guess there's at least two dimensions to that.
I guess the first one would be, are you relaxed and do you trust them to take care of themselves, even at a young age.
And the second one would be... are you actually there, or is it just your body that's there.
Are people who are very very securely attached to their parents happy later in life, or is there a ceiling? The terminology invites certain conclusions here.
Maybe the whole attention thing is more a matter of quality, rather than quantity
I think weak studies validating people's natural intuitions tend to do more damage than we give them credit for. Even if another better d signed study does way more work and comes with clear results that disprove the natural intuiton, it will be buried in the sea of low effort studies and people will already have settle the issue in their minds as "proven by science".
So many studies now a days have experiments designed to confirm a hypothesis instead of challenge it. They should be doing everything possible they can to disprove their hypothesis and only accept it after all attempts at falsification fail. But of course that's in idealized science. In reality, publish or perish means you need to get something published and negative results don't get published. And so this study, like what seems to be most now a days, is designed to prove their hypothesis - which ironically proves nothing.
> "Pay more attention to your kids", which is a pretty good universal message to put across.
I wouldn't be too sure of that actually: https://www.archbridgeinstitute.org/the-secret-to-parenting-...
Why is that much more plausible? It implies that it has always been there, and that nothing has changed since the last century, which is unlikely. Unless you want to introduce some other recent factor, but that is going to be even less likely.
And why? Because other studies have shown how addictive "phone" use is, and how it isolates people. And addicts (drugs, alcohol) are bad caretakers.
So there's really nothing that makes the explanation implausible.
You may ask yourself if it's not your own addiction speaking.
But it strikes me that many parents don't really think about it that much, as in the original rationale. I've had a suspicion there is something unethical about this. What choice could be more significant? Then again, maybe the personal nature of it means one is simply not aware of what other people are going through. Maybe everyone is really thinking it through. I am led to doubt it though. I'm curious if other people have had the chance to ask their own parents and felt satisfied by the results. That might be one of the few occasions you might have hope for a somewhat revealing answer.
I've found this notion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinatalism somewhat interesting in this regard.
Selfishly, nobody will love me like my children, at least in their early years. They're also amazing playmates and students. And they give me social permission to do silly things like climb on playground structures. They're also a great excuse to get out of stuff.
Selflessly, I believe me and the mother of our children are sensible people and the world needs more sensible people. Plus someone needs to maintain the replacement rate. And it's a weird, warm, fuzzy feeling to care for one's children at one's own expense.
In the intersection, it's a fun challenge to try to achieve balance in life, work, and family. I also really appreciate the chance to get a do-over of everything my parents did, keeping the good stuff and improving on the bad.
Biology / evolution. The drive to reproduce is baked in by natural selection. Organisms that didn’t want offspring didn’t pass on genes.
The number one reason is because they see other families and the love and joy that their children bring into their lives. This is inspiring, and brings people around to making the decision, even if they know the sacrifices they will have to make.
Boiling it all down to pure biology is stripping parents of agency to fit your worldview.
Personally, I know (online rather than in person) at least one couple who thought about it a lot, and ended up deciding not to have kids, because they were both carriers of a recessive gene (I forget which) that could have been nasty to whatever kid ended up with both copies. Which is kind of the opposite of "completely ignor[ing] if their kids even have a chance of a good future", IMHO. Other parents thought about it and decided to have only a certain number of kids and no more, because that was how many kids they could afford to raise and launch into a path that potentially leads to a good future.
Now, are there people who have kids for selfish reasons? Yes. I can think of some examples. But the people who think about it a lot and end up deciding to have kids? They're usually (not always, of course, but usually) some of the best parents around, precisely because they've thought about the sacrifices they would have to make and decided they're willing to make them for the sake of their kids' future happiness.
Why?
As a human being who was once born, I am extremely grateful for my existence, and how much thought my parents put into it beforehand is of practically no consequence.
You seem to imply that if parents haven't already committed to giving their kids a perfect childhood with perfect parenting then the kids are better off not living at all?
As for myself I would simply summarize that making an important choice such as bringing life into the world, without considering the consequences, is already somewhat unethical. One should think before taking an action that has irreversible consequences to anyone. In this case, the person being born. I wouldn't say I'm an antinatalist, I just find it interesting. On a rational level I'm not sure there are many good arguments against some of the conclusions there. If there are I'd be interested in hearing them. The fact that you are personally grateful for your existence is a pretty weak argument imo. If you had never been born you would not be around to know the difference. However had your existence been different it is not so hard to imagine you might feel differently. Surely your life is not so peachy that a scan of that article will be incomprehensible to you. Then again, perhaps you simply lived a far better life than I.
I'm not taking a position one way or the other. As I said, I just find it interesting.
Almost everybody's revealed preference is to stay alive rather than to not be alive, otherwise we'd see a lot more suicide.
> making an important choice such as bringing life into the world, without considering the consequences, is already somewhat unethical.
This is a view you can take, but it's not as obviously important as you seem to think.
An alternative view is "making an important choice such as FAILING to bring life into the world, given the opportunity to do so, without considering the consequences, is somewhat unethical."
If the standard was truly that you can't have kids unless you're sure they're going to have a great life, then we would have gone extinct millions of years ago.
Considering how the vast majority of people don't actively seek to end their lives, I think it's reasonable to assume that they prefer to live.
The crown argument against these musings is that according to them the only way to realistically act ethically is to not have children at all - that is self-defeating and not sustainable.
Also it places emphasis on avoiding harm/suffering etc. Problem is, these are unavoidable parts of life and trying to minimise them at any cost is essentially attempting to not live.
I think the term sometimes used for such things is "death cult".
Group 2 some think about it and do,
Group 3 and some don’t think about it much and are (probably) more likely to end up with a kid than group 1 because most people like having sex and this group will be less careful than group 1.