This was the original explainer that got me interested in this stuff!
adamschwartz 5 days ago [-]
What an amazing resource.
I’ve been building a vector editor that by default draws shapes with smooth curvature and shows the comb. [1] In addition to the four point types mentioned in the article, you get a new “curve” point type. I’ve also been making a font editor with the same drawing capability. [2]
Both are free static web apps that use local storage and have import/export capability for SVG files (and OTF files for the font editor).
Well that’s wild because I had a disagreement with beziers recently and did a similar thing! [1] albeit with more madness and less polish. Driven by the a/s/d/f keys with find edges snap to reference images and curve fitting to construction geometry.
Feel I should also call out Freyr’s videos for anyone who has missed them - continuity of splines [2] and the beauty of Bézier curves [3]
I remember watching the splines video for entertainment, thinking "Surely it can't be this hard for the common case: where we're not too picky, our points are far apart, and we don't need to minimize the segment count. This has to be a solved problem right?" After a bunch of fiddling with a project I had to come crawling back. It's so easy to get kinks, and derivative discontinuities are very noticeable. In the end I switched to a force-based navigation method instead a fixed path iirc.
Fraterkes 5 days ago [-]
I shouldn’t tell you this, cause I’m also working on a font editor, but I’d consider looking into Raph Levien’s Hyperbezier work
1 days ago [-]
moultano 1 days ago [-]
As someone who has spent a lot of my life editing bezier curves, this is really fantastic.
The one sticking point is instability in the middle of s curves which seems difficult. We're getting better control for every fully convex or non-convex path in exchange for chaos at the boundary between the two. I wonder if incorporating some other error term of the curvature in those regions might help, perhaps guaranteeing that the curvature derivatives are close to continuous whenever the curvatures themselves get too small?
One other thought is that you could use a saturating function of the tangent circle radius so that 0 curvature points don't have to have their control points go to infinity, perhaps making the saturation point a function of the distance to the nearby nodes to keep the scale reasonable.
dahart 13 hours ago [-]
This is very fun and well done, great interactive illustrations, and I love the deep dive into curvature.
I have to wonder - if you want smooth joins, why not use uniform B-splines instead of Bézier curves? With B-splines you don’t have to set constraints or compute curvature, it’s built in. What are the reasons to prefer Bézier?
There’s an old 1985 tech report by Tony DeRose (formerly of Pixar Research) that categorized the different ways to smoothly join curves - "Geometric Continuity: A Parametrization Independent Measure of Continuity for Computer Aided Geometric Design.”
That paper has a simple constraint formula for matching curvature between cubic Béziers, one that has a couple degrees of freedom. It’s the “G2 (curvature continuity)” formula mentioned on Wikipedia here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_B%C3%A9zier_curve#Sm.... It’d be interesting to know whether that somehow works out to be mathematically equivalent to this post’s technique or not.
unconed 10 hours ago [-]
As the post says, beziers are everywhere so we are stuck with them. It's worth trying to improve them for that reason alone.
Additionally B-splines (like Catmull-Rom) have the issue that moving one point affects a larger area of the spline than an equivalent bezier. The local control of beziers makes them more desirable for precise illustration.
As for the formula you cited, it tells you where to put the control point for continuity in function of two scalars, but those scalars don't directly map to intuitive controls. It also doesn't help when moving a curve point while preserving curvature on both sides because it only tells you one side in function of the other. I.e. continuity of curvature is a weaker constraint than having the desired curvature.
I initially experimented with something similar but found that numerical drift would steadily accumulate during interactive editing. The post shows this with the last example before curvature handles: rotating the tangents there preserves curvature continuity but the curve tends to blow up for certain angles, because the tangent is a poor proxy for indicating desired curvature.
dahart 10 hours ago [-]
Oh Béziers are great and not going anywhere, and I’m not suggesting they should. It’s all about your specific goals. I think B-splines are misunderstood and underutilized, and your comment might be exemplifying that a little. ;) For one, Catmull-Rom is not a B-spline. For two, it’s easy to achieve local control of a B-spline wherever it’s needed (there are two separate ways to do this). For three, and most importantly - note that the goal of the article is to get a smooth join, and the technique in the article is to drop localized control (!) by imposing constraints on both sides of a join point. Using a Bézier for this is more complicated than using a B-spline, for no additional benefit that I can see. Also worth mentioning that uniform B-splines and Béziers are mathematically shape equivalent - it’s trivial to convert between them, so they provide identical levels of control, they’re just slightly different interfaces for the same shape.
Minor edit here to note, it just occurred to me that the curvature constraint affects the curve over a span of 7 control points, whereas editing a B-spline control point affects the curve over a span of 4 control points. B-splines are strictly more localized than Curvature Béziers…
One reason B-splines aren’t well known & used is because seemingly most/all online content launches into the math and discussion of knots. The uniform B-spline doesn’t need knots, and I wish more tutorials would start there rather than intimidating people with the math.
BTW yes you’re right about the ‘scalars’ (the beta parameters) in the G2 curvature matching equation. I haven’t tried this and I don’t know what they do. I was wondering if these might have a relationship to the ‘heuristic’ the Acko article derives? That was kind of my question.
unconed 9 hours ago [-]
I wrote the article :).
To clarify, I meant B-splines _lack local control_ like Catmull-Rom splines, not that the latter is an instance of the former. Though indeed, all cubic splines are just cubic polynomials.
I disagree with your characterization that the proposed solution lacks local control, because edits only affect the segments in question, just like with a classic bezier. From the point of view of curvature handles, the handles you don't touch don't change. (The splitting of a curvature bezier is imo the best illustration of this.)
Re: the meaning of the scalars, I imagine they are derived similarly as the perpendicular-distance diagram in the post. If you plug bezier formulas into curvature formulas, a lot of terms cancel out.
dahart 6 hours ago [-]
Ah hehe gotcha, I missed you’re author, and you were saying CatRom and B-splines have similar locality. I feel like talking about local control’s a bit iffy. In a spline with multiple cubic segments, I think a control point edit is going to affect about the same span of arc length with all three bases Bézier, CatRom, and B-spline, no?
My claim that the Curvature Bézier has less locality, of course, was based only on editing one of the Bézier’s shared join points. When you edit a shared point’s position (by moving an anchor) or tangent (by moving either of the interior control points), you are affecting 2 segments, not just one, hence the 7 control point span. I’m being a bit sloppy but I’m sure you understand what I mean there - the portion of curve affected by a single control point edit technically affects a section of the curve that’s fully determined by exactly 7 consecutive control points. (Assuming cubic!)
Re-thinking B-spline, I believe I goofed - editing a control point affect 4 consecutive curve segments, which is the non-locality you’re referring to, but which is also a span of 7 control points, so very similar to editing one of the constrained Bézier’s shared anchor points. The window of which 7 control points slides smoothly with B-spline: the edited control point is the middle of the 7 control point span. With a curvature-constrained Bézier, each shared anchor and its two surrounding control points affect the curve defined by the same 7 control points.
So yes cubic Bézier segments that aren’t constrained in any way (i.e., the “cusp” and “corner” types), sure those have a kind of ‘locality’ in that editing the two interior control points affects only the 1 segment defined by 4 control points. But as soon as you add constraints on the tangents, neighboring segments affect each other, and your control naturally becomes less ‘local’, right?
So anyway, given that adding constraints to Bézier splines will cause neighbors to affect each other and control point edits are no longer confined to a single segment, are there other reasons to stick with Bézier?
WillAdams 1 days ago [-]
The thing is, the problematic curves often violate the rules put forward as best practices:
- place nodes at extrema (top/bottom, left/right)
- place nodes at points of inflection (middle of an _S_ curve)
- where possible/appropriate observe the "rule of 30" and place off-curve nodes not quote one-third of the way towards the other on-curve node
If one expected (or enforced) those rules, does the problem/math become easier?
unconed 15 hours ago [-]
Most of those rules are copes, really.
Placing points at X/Y extremes is by itself useless because beziers are rotation invariant. i.e. If that's the best place for the control points, then by the same argument if you rotated the curve by 45° the points would need to be on diagonal extremes. It's only useful with typography where many letters are oval. IIRC this rule originated because buggy rendering code assumed the curve would never extend beyond the XY bounding box of the control points.
Placing nodes at inflection points is actually a bad idea because there are very few configurations where curvature remains continuous. It's better to construct S bends with the inflection point in the middle, because then you always get a smooth transition.
Picking a specific spacing between control points makes it more likely that equal tangents represent approximately the same curvature on both sides, but it's not guaranteed either.
WillAdams 5 hours ago [-]
A notable context where the the on-curve node placement rules do matter is font design where the node placements interact with hints and are useful for ensuring consistency and consistent rounding when filling in pixels.
Further, these rules facilitate using the shift key to constrain off-curve node placement to in-line w/ the matching on-curve node horizontally or vertically.
rosstex 21 hours ago [-]
Is it bad that I don't understand this after reading it? I'm not even sure why "lie" he's referring to about bezier curves.
yorwba 19 hours ago [-]
The "lie" is that some Bézier-spline drawing programs let you restrict on-curve points to a "symmetric" configuration where the control points are at an equal distance on opposite sides of the on-curve point, but this doesn't necessarily make the curve itself more symmetric or more smooth. The proposed alternative is to control the bend radius instead, and ensure that the curve bends the same on both sides.
adrian17 15 hours ago [-]
It’s trading one property for another, isn’t it? Standard beziers with symmetric handles are C1 continuous but not necessarily G2 continuous; author’s scheme is the other way around, which makes them better for some use cases and worse for others.
unconed 15 hours ago [-]
The C1 continuity you refer to is relative to the parametrization t=0..1 per segment. This is useless in practice.
For e.g. animation purposes, you need to reparametrize to arc length which destroys the apparent C1 continuity.
dahart 14 hours ago [-]
The author was having a little fun calling it a “lie”, it’s more like a popular simplification. The question is how to join Bézier curves smoothly, and it’s fairly common for people to join them by matching the velocity, which means if you join two cubic segments (for example) with control points [a,b,c,d] and [d,e,f,g] where you’re joining at point d, then setting d-c == e-d, which puts c,d,e in a line with d as the midpoint, will connect the two curves smoothly. Lots of Bézier curve editing software will have a mode that enforces symmetric control points around the join point. The problem, or “lie”, is that this symmetric strategy doesn’t match the 2nd derivative, so there can be an abrupt change in curvature at point d. You can have a smoother join by adding constraints like curvature or 2nd or 3rd derivative matching, and that’s what the article goes into - one way of achieving smoother matches.
This WP entry mentions several other alternatives to smooth joins besides matching curvature:
I find bezier curbs sexy, well-rounded, smart, and attractive. They are awesome and this is, by extension, all of those things, too! We need more bezier curbs in this world.
larodi 2 days ago [-]
Illustrations in the article are indeed precious teaching material
peter_d_sherman 1 days ago [-]
>"The linear interpolations (aka lerps) can be summarized into a single compact formula, e.g. for 4 control points (A,B,C,D):
γ(t)=A⋅(1−t)^3+B⋅3(1−t)^2⋅t+C⋅3(1−t)t^2+D⋅t^3
The rule is simple: descending powers of (1−t), ascending powers of t, with coefficients taken from the n'th row of Pascal's triangle.
I've never seen the connection between the equation for Bezier Curves (more specifically the linear equations of curves with N control points aka "binding points" / "points of stability" / "fixed points" / "immovable points", etc.) and Pascal's Triangle before!
Brilliant!
Great article, too!
ViscountPenguin 18 hours ago [-]
This comes from the binomial expansion of (X+y)^n, where X^k y^(n-k) has coefficient (n choose k). This is since you "choose" X in K of the (X+y)'s (in the Bezier case it's kind of writing (t+(1-t))^n, the abcd are to not make it equal to 1).
The choice function is also exactly the same as the pascal triangle!
unconed 15 hours ago [-]
If you like that, then try this.
Take a row of pascal's triangle, add a zero in front (shift it to the right by one place), and divide it by the row below it.
0 1 4 6 4 1 /
1 5 10 10 5 1
= ...
From this you can prove that a linear bezier line (of any degree) must have equally spaced control points.
dahart 14 hours ago [-]
By line you mean a Bézier curve with no acceleration? As opposed to (say) a cubic with control points [(1,1),(2,1),(8,1),(9,1)] which makes a straight line but has a non-uniform parameterization?
unconed 14 hours ago [-]
Yes, a linearly parametrized line.
peter_d_sherman 14 hours ago [-]
Quick update:
When I said:
"(more specifically the linear equations of curves with N control points aka "binding points" / "points of stability" / "fixed points" / "immovable points", etc.)" -- there's a terminology mix-up here -- the control points (A, B, C, D) are
(obviously) variable / flexible in nature, but the values from Pascal's Triangle are (obviously!) bound/stable/fixed to their respective row!
So that's what I meant to say...
So my apologies for having messed-up the terminology there!
(You know what I meant! :-) )
Anyway, some very interesting responses and connections! Thanks to everyone who responded!
imnotr0b0t 1 days ago [-]
[dead]
Rendered at 05:24:19 GMT+0000 (Coordinated Universal Time) with Vercel.
Simplifying Bézier paths (2023) https://raphlinus.github.io/curves/2023/04/18/bezpath-simpli...
Parallel curves of cubic Béziers (2022) https://raphlinus.github.io/curves/2022/09/09/parallel-bezie...
Fitting cubic Bézier curves (2021) https://raphlinus.github.io/curves/2021/03/11/bezier-fitting...
I’ve been building a vector editor that by default draws shapes with smooth curvature and shows the comb. [1] In addition to the four point types mentioned in the article, you get a new “curve” point type. I’ve also been making a font editor with the same drawing capability. [2]
Both are free static web apps that use local storage and have import/export capability for SVG files (and OTF files for the font editor).
[1] https://svg.a10z.co/editor
[2] https://svg.a10z.co/font
Feel I should also call out Freyr’s videos for anyone who has missed them - continuity of splines [2] and the beauty of Bézier curves [3]
[1] https://gadgetoid.github.io/asdf
[2] https://youtu.be/jvPPXbo87ds
[3] https://youtu.be/aVwxzDHniEw
The one sticking point is instability in the middle of s curves which seems difficult. We're getting better control for every fully convex or non-convex path in exchange for chaos at the boundary between the two. I wonder if incorporating some other error term of the curvature in those regions might help, perhaps guaranteeing that the curvature derivatives are close to continuous whenever the curvatures themselves get too small?
One other thought is that you could use a saturating function of the tangent circle radius so that 0 curvature points don't have to have their control points go to infinity, perhaps making the saturation point a function of the distance to the nearby nodes to keep the scale reasonable.
I have to wonder - if you want smooth joins, why not use uniform B-splines instead of Bézier curves? With B-splines you don’t have to set constraints or compute curvature, it’s built in. What are the reasons to prefer Bézier?
There’s an old 1985 tech report by Tony DeRose (formerly of Pixar Research) that categorized the different ways to smoothly join curves - "Geometric Continuity: A Parametrization Independent Measure of Continuity for Computer Aided Geometric Design.”
That paper has a simple constraint formula for matching curvature between cubic Béziers, one that has a couple degrees of freedom. It’s the “G2 (curvature continuity)” formula mentioned on Wikipedia here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_B%C3%A9zier_curve#Sm.... It’d be interesting to know whether that somehow works out to be mathematically equivalent to this post’s technique or not.
Additionally B-splines (like Catmull-Rom) have the issue that moving one point affects a larger area of the spline than an equivalent bezier. The local control of beziers makes them more desirable for precise illustration.
As for the formula you cited, it tells you where to put the control point for continuity in function of two scalars, but those scalars don't directly map to intuitive controls. It also doesn't help when moving a curve point while preserving curvature on both sides because it only tells you one side in function of the other. I.e. continuity of curvature is a weaker constraint than having the desired curvature.
I initially experimented with something similar but found that numerical drift would steadily accumulate during interactive editing. The post shows this with the last example before curvature handles: rotating the tangents there preserves curvature continuity but the curve tends to blow up for certain angles, because the tangent is a poor proxy for indicating desired curvature.
Minor edit here to note, it just occurred to me that the curvature constraint affects the curve over a span of 7 control points, whereas editing a B-spline control point affects the curve over a span of 4 control points. B-splines are strictly more localized than Curvature Béziers…
One reason B-splines aren’t well known & used is because seemingly most/all online content launches into the math and discussion of knots. The uniform B-spline doesn’t need knots, and I wish more tutorials would start there rather than intimidating people with the math.
BTW yes you’re right about the ‘scalars’ (the beta parameters) in the G2 curvature matching equation. I haven’t tried this and I don’t know what they do. I was wondering if these might have a relationship to the ‘heuristic’ the Acko article derives? That was kind of my question.
To clarify, I meant B-splines _lack local control_ like Catmull-Rom splines, not that the latter is an instance of the former. Though indeed, all cubic splines are just cubic polynomials.
I disagree with your characterization that the proposed solution lacks local control, because edits only affect the segments in question, just like with a classic bezier. From the point of view of curvature handles, the handles you don't touch don't change. (The splitting of a curvature bezier is imo the best illustration of this.)
Re: the meaning of the scalars, I imagine they are derived similarly as the perpendicular-distance diagram in the post. If you plug bezier formulas into curvature formulas, a lot of terms cancel out.
My claim that the Curvature Bézier has less locality, of course, was based only on editing one of the Bézier’s shared join points. When you edit a shared point’s position (by moving an anchor) or tangent (by moving either of the interior control points), you are affecting 2 segments, not just one, hence the 7 control point span. I’m being a bit sloppy but I’m sure you understand what I mean there - the portion of curve affected by a single control point edit technically affects a section of the curve that’s fully determined by exactly 7 consecutive control points. (Assuming cubic!)
Re-thinking B-spline, I believe I goofed - editing a control point affect 4 consecutive curve segments, which is the non-locality you’re referring to, but which is also a span of 7 control points, so very similar to editing one of the constrained Bézier’s shared anchor points. The window of which 7 control points slides smoothly with B-spline: the edited control point is the middle of the 7 control point span. With a curvature-constrained Bézier, each shared anchor and its two surrounding control points affect the curve defined by the same 7 control points.
So yes cubic Bézier segments that aren’t constrained in any way (i.e., the “cusp” and “corner” types), sure those have a kind of ‘locality’ in that editing the two interior control points affects only the 1 segment defined by 4 control points. But as soon as you add constraints on the tangents, neighboring segments affect each other, and your control naturally becomes less ‘local’, right?
So anyway, given that adding constraints to Bézier splines will cause neighbors to affect each other and control point edits are no longer confined to a single segment, are there other reasons to stick with Bézier?
- place nodes at extrema (top/bottom, left/right)
- place nodes at points of inflection (middle of an _S_ curve)
- where possible/appropriate observe the "rule of 30" and place off-curve nodes not quote one-third of the way towards the other on-curve node
If one expected (or enforced) those rules, does the problem/math become easier?
Placing points at X/Y extremes is by itself useless because beziers are rotation invariant. i.e. If that's the best place for the control points, then by the same argument if you rotated the curve by 45° the points would need to be on diagonal extremes. It's only useful with typography where many letters are oval. IIRC this rule originated because buggy rendering code assumed the curve would never extend beyond the XY bounding box of the control points.
Placing nodes at inflection points is actually a bad idea because there are very few configurations where curvature remains continuous. It's better to construct S bends with the inflection point in the middle, because then you always get a smooth transition.
Picking a specific spacing between control points makes it more likely that equal tangents represent approximately the same curvature on both sides, but it's not guaranteed either.
Further, these rules facilitate using the shift key to constrain off-curve node placement to in-line w/ the matching on-curve node horizontally or vertically.
For e.g. animation purposes, you need to reparametrize to arc length which destroys the apparent C1 continuity.
This WP entry mentions several other alternatives to smooth joins besides matching curvature:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_B%C3%A9zier_curve#Sm...
γ(t)=A⋅(1−t)^3+B⋅3(1−t)^2⋅t+C⋅3(1−t)t^2+D⋅t^3
The rule is simple: descending powers of (1−t), ascending powers of t, with coefficients taken from the n'th row of Pascal's triangle.
I've never seen the connection between the equation for Bezier Curves (more specifically the linear equations of curves with N control points aka "binding points" / "points of stability" / "fixed points" / "immovable points", etc.) and Pascal's Triangle before!
Brilliant!
Great article, too!
The choice function is also exactly the same as the pascal triangle!
Take a row of pascal's triangle, add a zero in front (shift it to the right by one place), and divide it by the row below it.
From this you can prove that a linear bezier line (of any degree) must have equally spaced control points.When I said:
"(more specifically the linear equations of curves with N control points aka "binding points" / "points of stability" / "fixed points" / "immovable points", etc.)" -- there's a terminology mix-up here -- the control points (A, B, C, D) are (obviously) variable / flexible in nature, but the values from Pascal's Triangle are (obviously!) bound/stable/fixed to their respective row!
So that's what I meant to say...
So my apologies for having messed-up the terminology there!
(You know what I meant! :-) )
Anyway, some very interesting responses and connections! Thanks to everyone who responded!